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Experienced ROV Shift Supervisor required, to work off the coast of Australia, beginning early December for approx. 1 month duration.

Must hold existing visa, or be able to attain one.


This is unusual because it doesn't also say Australian national.

Let's assume Australian nationals are excluded and they only want a person with a visa. This person would be employed and paid by the UK agency (presumably in pounds or US dollars into their non Australian bank account) and not directly by the Australian office of the ROV company. Hence the union negotiated day rate with that company would not apply. So, hypothetically this could be a way of undercutting the day rates in Australia. Similar tricks may apply to any where else that is unionised.

Probably not the case, but it does raise a few points to think about.
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Micbeth wrote:
Quote:
Experienced ROV Shift Supervisor required, to work off the coast of Australia, beginning early December for approx. 1 month duration.

Must hold existing visa, or be able to attain one.


This is unusual because it doesn't also say Australian national.

Let's assume Australian nationals are excluded and they only want a person with a visa. This person would be employed and paid by the UK agency (presumably in pounds or US dollars into their non Australian bank account) and not directly by the Australian office of the ROV company. Hence the union negotiated day rate with that company would not apply. So, hypothetically this could be a way of undercutting the day rates in Australia. Similar tricks may apply to any where else that is unionised.

Probably not the case, but it does raise a few points to think about.



A very good point micbeth.... Anything to keep stomping down the rates - farquers (if it is indeed the case...).

Any of you dudes down under got an idea or have been "abused" by this loop-hole practice?
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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I believe the OP is quite right to question as to why an Oz co is looking ROV agency people outwith Oz. Whether this is a scam (on rates) by an Oz based operator or not is yet to be seen, but people must be alert concerning this kind of thing.
Probably worth any Oz guys checking with any people when/if they front up to see what deal they are on and flag any concerns to the MUA.

I am aware of one UK based company that tried to take UK nationals (regular ROV crew) into Oz and pay them as per their current UK contract rate and guaranteed they would pay no more than their usual UK taxes. The offer was any 'extra' Oz taxation would be swallowed by the company. Of course when a company makes such a seemingly generous offer you have to start asking why!!

So guess what? People started asking why, and looked into it a little more deeply.

Initially, the idea was sold to the ROV guys onboard by saying they would be no worse off by working in Oz compared to their usual UK take home pay.
The reason was reasonably obvious from the start.... they (company) didn't want to pay the UK sourced guys Oz union rates so cooked up this 'super nice' offer.
When questioned the company admitted that there was a 'slight' difference ( in who's favour we need not ask:roll: ) and rectified the situation.



Are they that short of ROV people in Oz at present?
James Mc
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James,

Thanks for putting a "bit" more eloquently than my last post....

I believe that this should be followed up as well (directing this to Aus ROV hands...). Are we "foreigners" coming into Aus and (unknowingly) under-cutting the pay and (inevitably) having your rates cut? Mad Mad
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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It is my understanding that this loophole was now closed, so these agencies will face hefty fines if they are not paying their foreign workers the equivalent wage to an Australian doing the same job:

http://www.visabureau.com/australia/news/30-07-2009/changes-to-australia-temporary-skilled-visas-to-protect-foreign-workers-from-exploitation-says-minister.aspx

http://www.nationalvisas.com.au/blog/australian-news/foreign-workers-to-be-paid-at-market-rates-in-australia/
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kangaroo wrote:
It is my understanding that this loophole was now closed, so these agencies will face hefty fines if they are not paying their foreign workers the equivalent wage to an Australian doing the same job....


Having read the info the links took me to...... It looks like the Oz government gives a bit of thought for it's citizens on the home job front.

Question.
If a foreign ROV person goes to Oz to work offshore in the O & G industry (no land - yard/office based work) do they require a work permit to enter the country?
Do they require a work permit to work offshore in Oz?

In the UK if somebody is entering the country to work offshore there is no requirement for them to have anything other than a visit visa.
No work permit required.
The reason being that if they are working outside the 12 mile limit they are technically in international waters and therefore a work permit cannot be issued by any country.


Last edited by jamesmc on 23:08 Fri 27 Nov 09; edited 1 time in total
James Mc
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Surely this is all speculation as the advert did not highlight any dayrate.

Also as I understand from some calculations I did with another ROV guy who had worked in Oz by the time you have done a six week trip on Oz rates you end up not that much better off on the higher day rate due to having to pay Oz tax at a much higher rate than the UK.

As I was led to believe after a couple of weeks down there you are liable to pay tax in Oz where as if you were offshore elsewhere in the world you may not be liable therefore with the elusive SED you would be financially significantly better off.

It appears yet again that there is a thread with a theme based on speculation which I am sure will work its way around to lets all join the OILC.


Yes the Uk could and should do more to protect its workers but since most of the ROV industry appears to live in Thailand that is quite hard to impose. If you are non resident and not paying tax in the UK why should the UK government show an interest in your employment situation
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luckyjim37 wrote:
Surely this is all speculation as the advert did not highlight any dayrate.


I agree entirely - it is pure speculation.

luckyjim37 wrote:

Yes the Uk could and should do more to protect its workers but since most of the ROV industry appears to live in Thailand that is quite hard to impose. If you are non resident and not paying tax in the UK why should the UK government show an interest in your employment situation


Eh? Who, in this thread, is asking the UK government to show an interest in UK citizens that are not resident in the UK and not paying UK tax, or did I miss something?

The least the UK government should do is look at protecting it's own patch as the Oz government appears to do for it's own citizens. Read the articles associated the the links provided by kangaroo above. They clearly shows how the Oz government is putting their own citizens ahead of foreigners on the job front. I say job front because there must be a pay off for the country as a result.
aka. The more local people employed on higher rates of pay results in more tax revenue for the country. A point probably not missed by the Oz government at all.
James Mc
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It is my understanding that this loophole was now closed, so these agencies will face hefty fines if they are not paying their foreign workers the equivalent wage to an Australian doing the same job:


Those links only give information on 457 visa holders who are sponsored to work in Australia by local companies. The add said that the applicants must have their own visa or be able to arrange one. I'm not sure what other categories of visa there are to arrange by youself but there are things like the work holiday visa, disgruntled ex-migrants who have gone home, people with Australian spouses, etc.

Quote:
Also as I understand from some calculations I did with another ROV guy who had worked in Oz by the time you have done a six week trip on Oz rates you end up not that much better off on the higher day rate due to having to pay Oz tax at a much higher rate than the UK.


The point of the thread was to point out a way to avoid paying the Australian day rate. I speculated that the person would be employed by the UK agency that advertised the position and paid in pounds or US dollars into their local bank account.

Consider this: As the work contract will be arranged outside Australia, all payments will be made in a non-Australian currency into an overseas account. There will be no paper record in Australia of payment hence there will be no way of enforcing the payment at the going rate as described in Kangaroo's post.

But I too agree it is entirely speculation. But I thought it would be a good discussion point that may have some relevance. I PM'd the poster of the position asking if Australians were also eligible to apply. I got no response, and as they have not responded here either let's speculate away to our heart's content.
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Quote:
Question.
If a foreign ROV person goes to Oz to work offshore in the O & G industry (no land - yard/office based work) do they require a work permit to enter the country?
Do they require a work permit to work offshore in Oz?


I believe the answer is yes, but these questions add a further speculative dimension to the discussion.

If someone is employed by a foreign agency and paid in a foreign currency into a foreign bank account, with no local paper trail, what's to stop them turning up on a tourist visa and lying about the purpose of their visit to immigration? One would like to think that the employing agency and local entity providing the work would have the ethics to check to make sure that the correct visa is in place, but I wouldn't count on it, based on past events that have occurred in Singapore.
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Micbeth wrote:


But I too agree it is entirely speculation. But I thought it would be a good discussion point that may have some relevance. I PM'd the poster of the position asking if Australians were also eligible to apply. I got no response, and as they have not responded here either let's speculate away to our heart's content.


It is a worthwhile discussion point. Threads like this do bring up points that may otherwise not be aired.

Speculation (in some parts) or not, it's been a reasonable discussion so far.
James Mc
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PULEEZE bring it on folks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This thread is getting to be VERY good - any nay-sayers?????????

James,

Please make this a sticky thread!!!

Dudes down under,

ANY MUA response to this yet?
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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Its getting a bit pointless.

Once the Australian unions agree on crew levels and have the bulk of their members on board. What they pay the rest of the crew and how they do it is rarely of any interest to them. Why would they care what the few foreign, non-members earn.? This is why companies such as Subsea 7 can send staff to Australia on their regular contracted rate. The pivitol point being agreed crew levels with the union, talk of loop-holes and other such nonsence is fantasy.


This is not pointless as you give a factual rather than speculative explanation of the situation. Obviously a lot of people are not aware of the situation, otherwise the thread would have died pretty quickly.

So basically Subsea7 could send some their comparatively low paid Filipino ROV personnel to work in Australia as long as there is a quota of Australian MUA ticketed crew onboard?

Do you know what the quota percentages are and do they apply to just ROV crews or the whole of the vessel?

To substantiate your facts, can you explain what dealings have you had with the MUA and have you actually been involved in negotiating foreign crewing levels with them?
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225 wrote:


Its getting a bit pointless.


What is getting pointless is your continued argument against anything that may be of benefit to those that actually work offshore in the ROV side of this industry and are striving for fair employment opportunities at a fair rate of pay. Based on many of your previous posts it's pretty obvious you have no interest in fair employment of ROV people, wherever they may work. No matter if it a discussion about UK offshore employment or, in this case, Oz employment, you always argue against any initiative that may support local people working in ROV offshore.

This site was created by a couple of offshore people wishing to help those that work offshore in the ROV game. My wife and I have put many years into helping people out as best we can. You on the other hand appear to have no remit in this forum other than to argue against, or attempt to belittle, any positive efforts people are trying to introduce by way of helping those in our industry. I find that less than helpful and that's me being as nice as I can about it.

I have to ask myself why you have actually bothered to join this site at all?
It appears that you have no interest in achieving anything other than meeting the needs of your own 'stick of rock' SS7 personal agenda.

Whilst I am all for healthy debate you are verging on pissing me off.
Make no mistake about it, this is my site and if I want to get pissed off with someone I will. Under current circumstances you fit the bill pretty well. Given almost 10 years of running things under this domain, and having never once come across such an annoying person such as yourself, that's saying something!

If, one day soon you can't log in you will know why. Your account along with all it's taunting, negative posts will have been deleted!!
You may pull a few strings in your patch of the oil field but here you are an ROVworld.com member and this is most definitely my patch!!

...and that is me being pretty calm about it.

Have a nice day... if that is at all possible!


Last edited by jamesmc on 20:40 Sun 29 Nov 09; edited 2 times in total
James Mc
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James,

Still no pm from 225 to me from another annoying statement in another thread... if it's whom I think it is, I'm really surprised he's still alive as this person is WORSE face to face...

Back to topic...

Any MUA members heard any grumblings of "cheap" labor coming in and "threatening" their livelihood??
I got your economic downturn right here!!!

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