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Not really sure what you think was twisted. Maybe someone wasn't clear on what they meant.
Seemed off track in the sense that people were more focused on how stupid it is to take the class, implying that it is just the greedy corporations just out to make money. The breakdown of cost someone posted was overly simplified and actually silly saying that the equipment for the class is zero cost. Even training aids require maintenance and techs to do that maintenance.

You contradict yourself saying that you don't think anyone said that oil prices will remain low, then quote yourself implying that prices will remain low. If you meant something different please explain.

I understand that contract will be cut by the oil companies and there will be less work, but that really doesn't have anything to do with why the prices drop or how long they will remain low. From what I understand the reason for the drop in the 80's was primarily due to reduced demand with the increased use of natural gas and nuclear power, and that the average fuel economy for cars increased by 30% from the late 70s to the early 80s. The recent price drop is mainly because Saudi lowered prices without reducing production, not sure why but seems logical that they want to hurt the fracking industry, which the increased production from that also had an effect on prices. Also, economic growth in China and some emerging economies has slowed reducing demand. Maybe it will take 10 years to see the prices increase, but circumstances are quite different today than 30 years ago.

Yes I am still interested in ROVs, I imagine life on the rigs is similar to shipboard life, which I miss. I will continue to submit my resume and in the meantime I will continue with my masters degree, no rush for me. And I accept your challenge, when I am at the level of a Sr offshore rep, we will discuss the terms of your retirement.

Now don't get upset and accuse me of having a bad attitude when I disagree with Oceaneering's new training model being a bad idea. I spoke to Oceaneerings ROV dept in Singapore and was told that new hires will go through a pipeline consisting of the ROV training, BOISET, and medical certificate. Now the certs need to be done prior to starting the paid training so some costs have been eliminated and others offset by the fee. The reason I think it is a good idea for them is that the training was going to be held anyway so now they have an audition in a sense or more of an evaluation period during the month in Batam. I have had many Sailors that looked great on paper but the polar opposite when put to work.
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rovdo wrote:
Well said James.
Regarding the schools, its supply and demand, nothing else. Who can blame them, they make money and get the pick of the new blood. in the end its up to the individuals if they want to spend the money on a course. As you said though, who would want to spend $12k on a course as a way into an industry who's short term future doesn't look rosy. Check back in a year or so, as you say.
The one good thing from a drop in oil prices and potential work, is that it tends to weed out a lot of 'cruisers' from the industry. It could however, go the other way and the bean counters keep hiring the folk who are willing to work for next to nothing and the guys with the actual operational experience struggle to the point of departure from the industry. The industry is full of inexperienced wannabe's at the moment, who THINK that they are experienced, it would be scary if they were left in charge as a majority!


Good points Bill Thumb Up
It does seem that there are a good few ROV wannabe's out there that simply don't get it and will convince themselves to spend their money on a training course anyway no matter what current advice they receive from those already in the industry. I guess that is what OI are counting on in Batam!

Look at it this way.... If the industry is perceived to be getting busy and an ROV company wants trainees they will interview, select and pay for their in house training/accommodation etc. The likes of Fugro and Oceaneering have done this for years.

However, now it seems the current trend developing is trainees are expected to pay for their own training. You have to ask yourself why that might be? Er... might be because the ROV co's are jittery about the way the next few years will shape up. The signs are pointing towards a drop in contracts not a busy period.

People paying for ROV courses out of their own pocket, or even worse through a bank loan, plays right into the hands of the operators for sure. No risk to then ROV Co at all. Plenty of risk to the individual though, as there is NEVER guaranteed work at the end of the course for all those that pass. You'll simply be a freelance ROV trainee with no offshore experience.
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My kind of Forum fun Smile

maswov wrote:
From what I understand


.....and there is the weakness in your argument. You clearly understand little about this industry but feel that your have sufficient experience in life to argue the toss. Best of luck to you with that approach.

maswov wrote:

You contradict yourself saying that you don't think anyone said that oil prices will remain low, then quote yourself implying that prices will remain low. If you meant something different please explain.

I quoted myself saying 'oil prices are dropping through the floor'. You can read into what you feel I might have been implying as much as you wish. It's simply your interpretation of what you thought I meant.

The fact is, prices have dropped and nobody knows when they will pick back up. It could be a month. It could be three years. No contradiction there.

So... prices are dropping through the floor and people are considering spending their own money on a training course run by a multinational corporation with no guarantee of work at the end, in an industry that globally might well be laying people off by the thousands next year.
Lets be clear here.. the signs are not positive for 2015. You'd need to be off your trolly to spend 12k on an ROV training course right now, or at all for that matter!

maswov wrote:

I understand that contract will be cut by the oil companies and there will be less work, but that really doesn't have anything to do with why the prices drop or how long they will remain low. From what I understand the reason for the drop in the 80's was primarily due to reduced demand with the increased use of natural gas and nuclear power, and that the average fuel economy for cars increased by 30% from the late 70s to the early 80s. The recent price drop is mainly because Saudi lowered prices without reducing production, not sure why but seems logical that they want to hurt the fracking industry, which the increased production from that also had an effect on prices. Also, economic growth in China and some emerging economies has slowed reducing demand. Maybe it will take 10 years to see the prices increase, but circumstances are quite different today than 30 years ago.

It doesn't matter what the underlying cause is for the drop 30 years ago or now. Not something I can be bothered to debate with either.

Facts
The price is down, offshore companies are jittery, Oil co's are cutting back on construction/exploration. On the latter, a vast amount of OI's work is drill support (rig, not vessel based). They will likely have many systems laid up doing bugger all if the price stays depressed. So, there is a good chance that the very company doing the training will have a dwindling requirement for ROV techs in 2015 in the short term.

maswov wrote:

And I accept your challenge, when I am at the level of a Sr offshore rep, we will discuss the terms of your retirement.


Hah! You have to be kidding me. Very Happy
You may bump into me when you are a drill support ROV tech, but I doubt that as I haven't worked on a Rig for about 15 years and am not likely to do so ever again. If you make the grade and eventually shift to ROV construction DP vessel operations, then maybe. As for discussing the term of my retirement so that you might fill my position.. no chance of that happening as I'll be long gone from this game by that point..... in a far distant time.
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Anyway, there is interesting discussion. Fugro ROV Academy seems more friendly to its students in terms of included cost. For the same price 12000 USD you will get BOSIET and medical included.
I know guys from the second class of graduates, they are all get work in the company and they are lucky. (Not sure for 2015)
Oil price drop is more critical for North Sea operators, but not for Asian region.
Moreover, there not only O&G work for ROV but Cable, Renewable Energy and other similar fields.
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Well, I've been reading all of your discussion and getting information on what to do.

So, for what I've understood, since I already have a HND (I believe it's the UK definition of my course, a level 4 electronics/electrical engineering technician), the Oceaneering ROV Introduction course would only be a refresher of my own academic course, focusing on ROVs.

So, if anyone could enlighten me, where do I stand and what should I do next?? With my academic qualifications and professional experience (piloting a Hyball ROV system and maintain it from 2001 to 2008 and a 16 year professional experience as a commercial diver), should i just go do a BOSIET and Offshore Medical to try and bust the door open, or do I need any other qualification or experience before that??


Since, for what i believe after reading all the different opinions, it's in fact too much money to "throw away" just to get a one month "refreshing" course with no contract guarantees at the end.

Thank you very much for your educated and sincere answer.
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XDiver, IMHO, you have sufficient experience and background to start the ROV career without any refreshing course. Pass your medical first and BOSIEtT and keep send your CV!
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Gents

Refresher course? If this is a refresher for anyone, then you are coming in at the wrong pay grade! The course content is listed on this thread already and it is very much a work class vehicle course. The actual ROV piloting training is conducted on two Magnum plus simulators which allow realistic scenarios utilising TMS, sensors, manipulators and tooling. In all most guys achieve about 15 hours piloting and 25 hours co-pilot and observation. There is some refresher of basic theory principles, as not all candidates have technical qualifications in both electrics/electronics and hydraulics, so a foundation must be achieved before covering the various systems.

It is a massive decision to make but only you can make an informed decision after taking into account all the variables. It has also been said previously that Oceaneering have been running this training for years, and have given thousands of guys and girls a start in the industry. What 2015 holds for the industry I can only guess, but do companies like Oceaneering base their recruitment requirements on today’s oil prices, or on their projected personnel requirements? The first six paying candidates were all offered contracts after their course which only finished two weeks ago, so this would indicate that if you make the grade then a contract should be offered? Given the fact that it will take at least 9/12 months to become proficient as a Junior PT then it stands to reason that they must continue some recruitment even at reduced numbers to meet all possibilities?

ATB

DMack
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DMack72 wrote:
Gents

Refresher course? If this is a refresher for anyone, then you are coming in at the wrong pay grade! The course content is listed on this thread already and it is very much a work class vehicle course. The actual ROV piloting training is conducted on two Magnum plus simulators which allow realistic scenarios utilising TMS, sensors, manipulators and tooling. In all most guys achieve about 15 hours piloting and 25 hours co-pilot and observation. There is some refresher of basic theory principles, as not all candidates have technical qualifications in both electrics/electronics and hydraulics, so a foundation must be achieved before covering the various systems.

It is a massive decision to make but only you can make an informed decision after taking into account all the variables. It has also been said previously that Oceaneering have been running this training for years, and have given thousands of guys and girls a start in the industry. What 2015 holds for the industry I can only guess, but do companies like Oceaneering base their recruitment requirements on today’s oil prices, or on their projected personnel requirements? The first six paying candidates were all offered contracts after their course which only finished two weeks ago, so this would indicate that if you make the grade then a contract should be offered? Given the fact that it will take at least 9/12 months to become proficient as a Junior PT then it stands to reason that they must continue some recruitment even at reduced numbers to meet all possibilities?

ATB

DMack


I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "coming in at the wrong pay grade"??

Yes, I've seen the course content and that's why I've said that it is a refresher course, focusing on ROVs, of my own HND (electrical/electronic engineering course). All those basic theory principles, I already know and the Oceaneering course would be a very good refresher.

But I'm still left with 14K USD total to pay, and no guarantee of a contract, job or even interview... They could just receive the money, give me the course and after, just let me go.... There is no guarantee of anything...

Of course when we come from a school, there's no guarantees that we'll get a job in that area of expertise, but doing a course in a Company that recruits that kind of qualified worker and don't even have a "light at the end" to grab on.... I'm guessing the best advice I've seen on this thread is NOT spending that ridiculous amount of money, when there's no contract after.

Even those 6 guys that had a contract placed for them, will still have to work some months "for free" to get the money back....
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XDiver

I was not trying to be flippant but merely making the point that this is a pretty good course and that there is the possibility of getting a start in the industry after it. What I meant by coming it at the wrong pay grade is that if this is a refresher to you then you obviously have training and experience on work class vehicles and could therefore probably come in at a higher level? As I have said the only refresher is on basic theory principles and is only to provide a foundation before moving into the ROV systems proper. For example you are electrical/electronic biased so prior to moving into hydraulic systems fundamental principles are covered and likewise for hydraulic/engineering biased students basic electric principles are covered. If you are dual qualified and experienced then happy days, also some guys haven’t sat in a classroom in a few decades so sometimes this is a good way to ease into things.

As previously mentioned some companies will put you through their in-house training scheme for free, but now some companies like Fugro ME and Oceaneering are not giving it away for free anymore and require a shared risk. Anytime we pay for education and training, it is an investment in ourselves and sometimes it is a risk. There is no guarantee that we will pass any course we do or even get a job thereafter, but as I said you have to make that decision based on your circumstances.

Mate whatever you decide, all the best for the future.
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DMack72 wrote:
.......

As previously mentioned some companies will put you through their in-house training scheme for free, but now some companies like Fugro ME and Oceaneering are not giving it away for free anymore and require a shared risk. ......


It's the ebb and flow of the industry. In the current climate companies don't see themselves being short of ROV labour in the near term and therefore are trying to pass some of the perceived risk on to the trainee. When those same companies see themselves coming up short in the near term they will cover the whole cost as they don't see a downside on financial risk.

I always thought that one should have the basic tech background required (Electrical/Hydraulic) then be employed by a company, after which they would pay for your ROV in house training. During that period you would be on a salary of some sort.

Now it seems the bigger companies (that historically operated in the fashion I mentioned above) are no longer prepared to even do that.

You need to ask yourself why this might be?

I'm going to suggest that is because they don't see the industry being too busy in the near term and don't want to be caught with a bunch of employed trainees on their books that they have shelled out on training on systems that may well be under utilised.

Now you can argue until the cows some home how good a course supposedly might be the great value for money it is purported to be, but if you are $10, 12, 14k out of pocket with no prospect of work then your world might come crashing down around you.

If you have proven tech quals with time served experience I say. bugger the course. BTW I’m not talking someone that doesn’t have a technical Scooby and thinks an ROV course will give them those skills
An experienced person should go to the ROV companies first. Get your CV out to them. Keep pushing and digging. Try not to speak with HR until you have to. Often to them it's just a numbers game anyway. See if you can build a business/conversation relationship with an ROV manager or two and other similar contacts.
If they need people they will take you on. If they don't see a need for more personnel you'll not hear a jot from them. That'll speak volumes as to the state of the industry and will be a good indicator of what is to come on the work front.

ROV may sound all nice and rosy to some, but when you look around these days there are many jobs in the offshore industry that require similar technical qualifications that are way better paid than ROV that's for sure.
IMHO ROV is almost the poor of the poor when it comes to pay and conditions for technical personnel.

So, by all means prod a bunch of ROV co's but in addition chuck your CV out to other elements of the industry. If it's not ROV that comes first you can always revisit the ROV idea at a later point, but by then you'll be better able to work your industry contacts to better effect.
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ROV may sound all nice and rosy to some, but when you look around these days there are many jobs in the offshore industry that require similar technical qualifications that are way better paid than ROV that's for sure.
Please, specify which of the offshore jobs you are talked about?
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Subsea engineer, drilling crew, rig electrician...
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There is no any chance to start career on the above mentioned positions without industry experience. ROV still have the option to start as a trainee without relevant experience. Good chance for ex-mil's, avionics tech's and so on.

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