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Sorry Lads this is not a job offer , But after seeing the same old jobs .

If the job requirement was so Urgent why dont the main line companys start paying 2012 rates !

It would save so much time when the agencys submitted there requirements they put there rates .

The money is there they just dont want to spend it .

Cheers for Now

Raptor
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Agreed.

To all those Agencies out there, yes - we know there are more jobs than people.

However, you really do need to be feeding back to your Clients that people will not work for the rates they are offering.

Whether they like it or not, the company that pays the most money will ALWAYS get people, it really is that simple!
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Well if we look at the last job that was on offer :
Pilot
Mohican
2-3 weeks
UK Waters

Ok this as we know is N-Sea or if you like Noordhoek , With a few phone calls and emails I got hold of N-Seas 2012 Rates .

Cheers

Raptor
2012 PAY RATES 2012 Rev 2.pdf
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After what I have seen on this forum in the past 24 hours I thought I would reopen this topic .

We seem to be getting all the same old personnel requirements which means the same old rates .

What we need to see is 2012 rates and not 2007 , Why work for $600 - $700 USD when companies like Bluestream offshore are paying 690 euros = $850USD But BlueStream are not he only ones .

It would help every body and stop wasting people time if we knew what work class was being used as most main line clients when they go to agencys looking for work class personnel there looking for people who know there systems Perry or SMD to name but a few and they wont except you without

As for the last wave of personnel requirements I think most of it is for Fugro .Its very clear from the statement " Only skilled pilots need apply " that the people they have been getting so far cant fly !

Well what do they expect for the day rate on offer , I would love to hear back from any body who has applied for one of these jobs .

All I know is its peak season and if you want experienced personnel you need to pay .

Good Luck

Raptor
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Lets assume we are talking UK based agency rates here.

Sorry, but all this has been brought on the industry by the people that keep it alive: ROV Techs.

I feel that, these days, there are too many agencies in the fray they (Agencies) are accepting contract with low rates in a bid to keep their books live. This translates into depressed day rates and inter-agency competition.

If ROV peeps would shop around looking for better rates then the rates would have to go up. As it is, people seem to take whatever is on offer and later complain in the coffee shop (offshore) that the rates are crap and they won't be coming back! Way too late!

The Agencies are trying to keep their businesses running. I see nothing wrong with that. If I were in their shoes I would do the same.
ROV peeps should be doing the same also, but it appears that they are not the best of business people, so are allowing themselves to be taken to the cleaners. It's clear to me that as long as UK ROV peeps keep going it alone they will lose out in the longer term.

Which, in turn, plays right into the hands of the operators.

Two fixes:

Operate with a sizeable cash buffer as a backup. It allows you to proffer a polite No! when you need to.
Nobody needs the biggest mortgage on planet earth, a new car very year etc.. but plenty of people I have met offshore seem to think that keeping up with the Jones's and ending up maxed out on mortgage/finance/loans/credit cards is the way to go. Recent global events should be able educate a few on the perils on that approach! If Countries and Banks can't operate by borrowing nor should individuals!

An actual example of saying no when you need to....
Two years ago I was offered work by an Agency as a client rep. They had my CV, client had approved and they were all ready to send me out on the job in a couple of days, but when they advised me of the rate I suggested they come back with a better offer or I'll not be going. Up to this point discussions had taken place solely by email. The phone rang. 'Sorry but this is the rate we have agreed with the client, we have no choice on upping the rate so you should take it.' I gave them a polite no! and wished them luck finding a (more gullible) person to fill the slot. They were clearly not used to being turned down as the person on the end of the phone asked me to clarify why I was turning the work down, even though I had already told them!
I put the phone down an started chasing other work that was lurking in the background. The job I finally took paid far more that had been offered by the agency in the example above.

The other option is Union backing to set an ROV agreement in place which would cover rates and conditions in the UK. Oz and UK divers have that in place. Oz ROV have that in place. They all enjoy set rates (with annual or bi-annual increases) and reasonable conditions that cannot be screwed with, other than via negotiation.

Whilst I feel Raptors pain on what is going on, I also know that low/erratic rates will prevail (for UK sourced operations) as long as UK ROV types think that they can operate:


  • Alone (not bargain collectively)
  • On the basis that work will come all year round.
  • Maxed out financially (and thus have to take what is on offer or go bust)
  • On the misconception that rates should be stable or climbing annually (even though there is no mechanism in place to facilitate that!)


Last edited by jamesmc on 17:58 Tue 10 Jul 12; edited 1 time in total
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I've not been freelancing for very long at all (first job about to start after a few years with an ROV Co) and granted my first job is a bit higher paid than all the jobs advertised here for my level but after that what do you do.
I see what you're saying about saying NO to the poor rates and keep shopping around but if that's all that is on offer what option do people have when most need to work (being honest not many can choose not to work indefinitely).
I must say I did say no to a rate offered (not the job I'm going to do) and it was subsequently increased but not by much and it was made obvious it would go no higher, what are people to do with that when the agencies know most need to earn a crust.

Just my limited experience of it all so far, hopefully all the jobs I get from now on are on the rate of this 1st job.
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J-Mac wrote:

I see what you're saying about saying NO to the poor rates and keep shopping around but if that's all that is on offer what option do people have when most need to work (being honest not many can choose not to work indefinitely).


J-Mac.... Nobody is suggesting that people turn jobs down indefinitely and don't work at all. If you turn just one job down (as you did) and take another that pays a little more, and every one did that, then rates would have to improve.


J-Mac wrote:
....if that's all that is on offer what option do people have


If you are working agency there is rarely ever just one job on offer unless you are low on experience. If that's the case you should not be working agency in the first place as you are playing right into the industry's hands.

J-Mac wrote:
hopefully all the jobs I get from now on are on the rate of this 1st job.


Hopefully???

That's all you have in the UK at least... Hope and luck.
The rest is down to the operators and agencies as it is they that call the shots on rates in this game at present.
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They may only have Hope & Luck in the UK but I can at least add some sunshine to my hope here in Spain Very Happy

I totally agree there are lots of jobs, I've never had to refuse so much work before in my life but the thing I've seen in this few weeks looking at agency work is that even if people do say no to a job offer with a poor rate the vast majority are paying much the same.
So how do rov gadgies like myself drive these rates up, when as we all know getting any decent kind of group together to do this hasn't really happened.

I know you're not saying people shouldn't work but a fair bit of posts on here just say "refuse the rate".....then what ?
To me that will just pass the job to someone who will work at any rate, possibly someone less experienced which may in the long run get companies to up their prices if they keep getting people who can't do the job but that's not an overnight solution.
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Raptor Good on you for posting these two Dive companies rates, For ROV Personel.
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J-Mac wrote:
They may only have Hope & Luck in the UK but I can at least add some sunshine to my hope here in Spain Very Happy


You'll be soaking up as much sunshine as me in the Algarve then Wink

Good luck Thumb Up
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deepseacon wrote:
Raptor Good on you for posting these two Dive companies rates, For ROV Personel.


I'll second that Thumb Up
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Thanks for the feed back guys its just that with the current flood of rov personnel requirements all we seem to be getting is the same jobs at the same old rates .The wording may have been changed a round but its the same old jobs they dont seem to understand its peak season 2012 and unlike previous years most people are all ready working .

All they need to do is start paying 2012 rates , From looking at all these requests for personnel its not that hard to work out its for the same old clients Fugro or Saipem .

If it was 2009 that I could understand the low rates but the money is available , As for Agencys there are bad points and good points if your working for some unknown company then yes go via a agency you might get paid less but you will get paid.

If however its a known company then go direct the rate should be higher just means you might have to wait a bit longer to be paid .

If I do come across any more information on rates working direct I will add it to this thread .

Cheers for now

Raptor
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I think the best tool in the arsenal was the rov pay rates that James had up a few years ago. It allowed an "at a glance" look at what the market was sustaining.

It is as james says though - it is only useful when it reflects "current" rates. The problem arose when people forgot to send in updates.

It's a very quick and easy fix.
Talk in anger and you'll make the best speech you'll ever regret.

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