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Subsea 7’s use of foreign workers worries RMT


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Last edited by jamesmc on 19:29 Fri 09 Oct 09; edited 1 time in total
James Mc
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I just hope somebody finds something that is not legal the way it is done by SS7 and get them by the balls. This pure greedy mentality without any moral doubts really upsets me.

Anybody employed with SS7 should have a look around the way things are done, if there is anything that might be worth reporting, he should do so.
e.g. entering on tourist visa, etc.....
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225 wrote:
Agency hands and contractors loosing out...oh well



WT....????? You , pal, are a I don't know what! You definitely must be management w/SS7 a richard cranium!!!! good luck with the Nigerian trainees.


Spread the word lads / lasses - this is management at it's worst and showing it's teeth - kill the beast NOW!!! Awright Jack!


Last edited by scotbeve on 20:59 Fri 09 Oct 09; edited 1 time in total
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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225 wrote:
Agency hands and contractors loosing out...oh well


...... and your point is?
James Mc
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This 225 character is fairly making a name for himself with his comments, or maybe he is on a fishing trip. Twisted Evil

Anyway,
Unless we get our act together in a collective way and get away from the "I'm all right Jack" ROV 5 Bucks a day more than the next man syndrome, we are all going to find our selves taking massive pay cuts in the near future, and that will include staffers.
Remember, there will always be somebody out there that will undercut your wages.
The job will still get done, It will take longer and the occaisional "lost ROV" will happen, but it will still get done and the management will have won and you will be getting the same money as somebody stacking shelves in Tesco.
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225 wrote:
If nobody is bothered they get poor rates when they work back home in Brazil/Angloa/Philippines and only concerned when they fly into Aberdeen. Then the argument is never about slave labour and only about UK job protection issues.


This is about pay in the UK sector though, and therefore concerns UK jobs. Who, living and working in the UK, paying UK taxes, is going to be bothered what these people earn in their own neck of the woods when it's about the same as they get anywhere in the world? These Filipinos are happy and they will take the same money home no matter where they work in the world. It will life as normal for them.

The cost of living in the Philippines (and the other countries mentioned) is way low and they can survive at home quite happily on these wages and they do. That's why they are coming here!

In Indonesia a barge master I knew was on USD$1000/month. On that money he had two house and put his three kids through college. Try that in the UK.

Based on the money they are being paid in the North Sea and the cost of living in the UK it would mean that these people could not afford to live here and they wouldn't, unless you paid them a much higher rate to enable them to do so.

It certainly is exploitation on the part of the company.

225 wrote:
Should I insist these guys never work in the UK sector?......


No, you shouldn't. I don't want to insist on that either. What I would want to see is proof that a UK worker is not available to do the same job and evidence would need to be provided to immigration to that effect.

If they can do it in Oz it can be done here. You can't just send a foreigner to Oz and take them offshore in the Oil & Gas sector without a work permit. I'm reasonably sure about that, but am prepared to be corrected.
On the contrary a UK based company is legally able to legally import cheap labour to work offshore in the UK sector with not so much as a hint of a work permit being required.
What chance to UK workers have against that?

I think it entirely fair that UK based offshore people should fight this and try to protect their own future. Any UK citizens (no mater where they live) accepting the idea of foreigners taking away UK jobs should have their rates dropped to the same level and see how they get on.


Last edited by jamesmc on 00:56 Sat 10 Oct 09; edited 1 time in total
James Mc
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It occurs to me that perhaps the UK personnel should pressure their politicians to enact laws that require a % of the workforce to be UK citizens/residents. Other countries do this and companies deal with it...why do you think Nigerians are employed at all?
But probably against The Hague’s (EU) conventions?

Must say nothing personally against Nigerians except that the men there are equal to my 12 year old son in terms of knowledge of hand tools and work ethics.

Out of curiosity is SS7 informing their Contractual Partners that they are employing non 1st world technicians/pilots at the same time as getting payment from the Clients for the services based on costs of 1st world tech's /pilots?
Rhetorical.
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225 wrote:

I actually think if you dont live in the UK then any arguments made against foreign workers here is null and void.


You may need to look at the bigger EU picture (or to be totally correct 'EA picture') for your statement to have any credibility.

I don't live in the UK, but I do live in the EU.

Not only am I entitled to work in the UK (on land or offshore without a work permit) but, as a UK citizen, I am entitled to have my say as far as UK affairs are concerned, of that I am certain.
Therefore, it is your statement that may possibly be null and void.

It is my understanding that any EA citizen is entitled to work in any sector of the EA. Therefore, I cannot see why a non EA citizen would need to be employed by any company in the EA zone for any other reason, other than to produce a better return for it's investors.
If there were a lack of technical vocational ability, then fair enough. However, there is plenty of technical and operational experience/talent in the EU (EA) to draw on.

In this instance the moral, and potential safety, issues have obviously gone out of the window in favour of pure unadulterated profit, with no thought given to previously reliable long term employees.

I foresee in the future, as a result of present SS7 and other operators actions, the knock on effect being a clamping down, under EU law, on the use of non EA workers in EA offshore sectors. This would be in a similar manner as already happens in the USA and Oz.

Potential short term profits, driven by the small minded dreams of UK company managers, may well prove to create a bigger monster than any of these so called major offshore operators would ever have wished to be party to.
James Mc
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Well said James....

I had just replied to another post of RCV .... err... 225's and the reply (albeit shorter) stated something to the effect of short-termed-tunnel-vision-economics.
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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I think the point being missed is the fact that it's not realy about foriegn workers.. It's about sub standard pay rates..

The Op's Managers Nirvana of finding competant guys willing to work for peanuts comes around again and again..

I've seen it in Asia and in West Arfica..

I've been given countless trainees in my time and have been willing to teach any of them as long as they were on the correct rate...

But I wouldn't waste my time on guys being shafted on some 50 bucks a days scheme..

Now the reason why the 'Let's get cheap Asians to do the work' doesn't work is simple..

If a guy turns out to be good and can do the job as well as an expat he will very soon be demanding expat level pay.. Or he will go to another company ( Yep you have just lost all the training you gave thim too)

If a guy isn't much use he may be willing to hang around and work for a low rate but the rest of the team will be reluctant to work with him.. He will soon get a name for being useless and that's the end..

There have been hundreds of Asian trainees over the years... Indo's, Chinamen, Singaporeans, Malaysians and Flips too.. But only a small minority stuck it out an turned into decent ROV hands.. There are some really good Singaporean ROV guys... But all of them are on the same rates as expats at the same level..

Any bloke who is any good no matter where he is from will eventually demand equal pay...

No as for expats getting first world rates in third world countries... Do you think that guys would travel half way round the world to get paid less than they would at home. ?? ahahahahahahah....

Companies also seem to prefer local living expats as they don't cost much to mobillize to the jobsite and are used to the enviroment/food/condition etc..

If SS7 want to bring Flips to the UK to be ROV trainees.. No problem.. BUT they should be paid exactly what a trainee from the UK/EU would be paid... Having seen a fair few Filipino techs in my time I'd say SS7 would soon give up on them if they had to pay them UK wages... a UK lad would be a better choice.

Don't want to sound racist but there is a reason companies pay for 'expensive' expats.. It's not that expats are really any better.. It's because the local guys that are as capable/motivated/exerienced as an expat generally aren't interested in dirty offshore work.. They see it as low class and grubby.. If they have an education and are bright they can usually find much more rewarding work on the beach in an office.. This means that ROV companies looking for cheap labour usually only get the leftovers.. The few good Asian ROV guys aren't the norm.. they are exception and they are usually one in a hundred..

As for Africans... hahahaha... they havn't invented the wheel yet so how they gonna fix an ROV... gimme a break

Rolling Eyes
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Oh and as for SS7... Simple.. Just don't work for them..

Unfortunately their die-hard "the company loves me'' wanke*s will hang on getting their salary and eating sh*t sandwiches till they retire..

Why the don't get some spine and say..'No guys on low pay'' or we will all leave/refuse to work with them I don't know..

Grow a pair you pussies !

There is a shortage of experience ROV guys worldwide.. Wonder how effective SS7's fleet of contruction vessels would be if ROV crews refused to work for them... What they gonna do ? train up a fully Fillipino crew over night... ahahahaha... Like to see that.. They'd better make sure their insurance was paid up... and order a few repalcement subs while you are at it..
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DJan,

Thx for that last 2 rants... Mirrors my thoughts pretty much.

see next thread: http://www.rovworld.com/phpnuke/ftopicp-20937.html#20937
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
Quote
225 wrote:
Would you be happier to see Latvians, Slovakians, Lithuanians (EU members) taking the jobs other than Philippino lads? The bigger EU picture. Considering the Polish lads are dominating the marine side of things these days. Is it really that simple as saying any EU member is welcome and others are not.


If they are EU citizens my perceived happiness has nothing to do with it, it's EU law and that's it.

I have no preference over working with any nationality as long as they are legally allowed to work in the UK and are obliged to be paid similar rates as their UK counterparts.
Hence, the idea of ROV and other subsea vocations being included in a subsea agreement with clearly defined employment conditions and rates to be enforced for any subsea worker working in the UK sector. The UK divers do it. So should UK ROV and other subsea related vocations.

Yes, the issue is low pay. That's what this thread is supposedly all about. The employment of cheap foreign based labour. The word 'foreign based' applies as any UK based foreigner would already know what they should be on, pay wise, and would also know that they could not survive (as a UK resident) on the rates SS7 is paying.


Quote:
Job protection in the USA? ... SS7 happily employs Philippino ROV lads on the Skandi Neptune which works permanatly in the Gulf.


They may not be happily employing Filipino ROV lads for that much longer. Read on......

I stand my ground on USA job protection. It is not easy to get a work visa for the USA and it is getting harder.
The US is openly attempting to protect the jobs of their own citizens as a result of the global economic meltdown.
This can be viewed as a US government Federal policy, not just a local Southern states thing.
You can see where this is leading to as they gradually (over the next few years) enforce a recently modified Jones act.
This, in effect, allows for only American built and registered vessels to operate in the Offshore energy sector of the USA, or any areas of the world under US jurisdiction.
You can bet your bottom dollar that those vessels will need to be crewed by US citizens. They had to shelve it's immediate introduction because the US offshore fleet, and onshore vessel building facilities, are not currently up to taking over the total requirement but I would suggest it will happen within (say) 5 years. So, with regard to the offshore sector US employment policies are very clear to those that bother to read up on such things.

Protect US marine jobs is the message.

That is exactly what we should be doing for UK marine sector jobs.

Quote:
Skandi Neptune which works permanatly in the Gulf.


Permanent?
Nothing is permanent, especially when it comes to marine activity.
It might be better to say The Skandi Neptune currently works in the Gulf.
The Skandi Neptune, and other foreign boats like it, will be shoved out of US waters eventually. There may be cracks in the employment armour right now, (which short term profit style management, such as that running like SS7, are happy to exploit) but even they will not be able to resist longer term US employment policies being introduced into the marine sector. Anyway, that'll be no problem to SS7 as they appear not to work with long term management policies.


Quote:
The point is its a global industry and guys work and live all over. The issue is low pay and nothing to do with were people live.


What? Of course it is to do with where they live! That's why SS7 are bringing them in. They are on low pay because they live in a cheap country. If they lived in the UK with their families it would be a non starter! Low pay, and where they come, from are definitely connected.

That's why Indians, Filipinos, Thais, Indonesians, Vietnamese (to name but a few countries) all get crap rates when offshore overseas, whereas UK, Australian, US, Canadian, Norwegian, Dutch, Danish people all get much higher rates of pay.

As a diver working in India, the Indian divers were on an income way lower than our but they were doing exactly they same work (in theory). Why were they on lower pay? Because of where they lived.
James Mc
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225 wrote:
Fair play. Everyone should get paid according to were they live. Now all those expat's living in Thailand and cheaper foreign countries please step forward.

It may not be easy to get certain types of USA visa. But it certainly seems easy enough to get Filippino ROV lads them, Croation medics and Polish DP op's visas. Thats just a fact. If thats the meaning of USA job pretection, then it looks pretty close to the UK. Anyone tried to get a STV Angolan visa recently. Now that is tricky. Your right about the definition of permanent though, nothing is permanent. Not even the ROV good times. The Skandi Neptune isn't permanent, it just works there...alot.

As for the Jones act, who knows what that will turn into. I predict nothing. Its been shelved for reasons far beyond US ship yard avaliability. They are not going to build themselfs another Thialf, Saipem 7000 or Solitaire anytime soon and there will be more excemptions for specialist construction vessels than you can shake a stick at. So whats the point.


Several points here... which one are you shaking a big stick at the most?
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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225 wrote:
Fair play. Everyone should get paid according to were they live. Now all those expat's living in Thailand and cheaper foreign countries please step forward.


225 Rolling Eyes

Yet again, for the third time, not very useful input from 225 as far as this thread is concerned.
I will have a sensible discussion with anyone, which is one of the reasons why I started this website in 2000, but am little impressed with such remarks along the lines of the one above.

Each time we try to debate it 225 seems to want to slip a post with the intention of derailing sensible discussion. or trying to annoy somebody. Flippant remarks are out of order and along the lines of some of 225's other equally useless posts which I warned them about by PM a few days back.

If anyone has a valid reasons to see Filipinos employed in the UK sector, on cheap wages, then state those reason and support them with relevant input, otherwise I suggest you stop posting and simply read.

Sorry folks but that was about the most polite way I could think of to convey my message online.
James Mc
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