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Does Oceaneering's course offer a certificate? Not just a simple completion certificate but something recognized in the industry and education world such as an ASE Certified Technician in the automotive industry.
My veteran's benefits would cover the cost but the courses must meet certain criteria.
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Please let me explain having any Rov certificate means nothing ! IMCA set out guide lines nothing more .

Over the years I have got into the industry many people none of these guys did a rov course but they all had a back ground of electronics or mechanics and could see a problem and work outside the box .

But like I and the other Senior members of this forum have said its your money we can only offer you advice but we are not talking about a few hundred pounds this course is $12000 = £7.700 GBP .

Yes your get a cert but will it get you a job " NO " If it did guarantee you employment yes its a good deal other wise its no better than one of the other third party training schools which take your money and run .

So the choice is yours !
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There aren't many (if any) training courses that guarantee a job upon completion. It seems the industry is changing to a paid training model and it is clear that having the training does not guarantee a job but it does give an edge to one given 2 candidates with otherwise identical qualifications. Companies will look for ways to save time and money and that could be done by hiring trained employees.
I was just asking about the certificate because schools and training courses need to meet a certain criteria for the veteran's affairs to pay under the GI Bill. Normally course that end with a certification do meet the criteria.
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Well like I said the choice is for the readers of this topic to make there minds up .

If you can get your training paid for that's good however I can tell you for a fact that if 2 people stood in front of me and one had done a Rov training course and the other certs for Electronics or Hydraulics or better still X service personnel I would pick the later .But I can tell you now the last thing I look for when picking crew is " Rov training course certs " Most training schools might train you on a small inspection vehicle , However there are many vehicles on the market its like training on a small Cessna then being ask to fly a 747 .

Like I said if you can get this course for free under your GI Bill then good but other wise its a total waste of a very large amount of money .

Back in the early seventies it was Oceaneering who had a staff house in Dubai full of baby divers and these guys did not get paid they worked for there board and keep , But they did get experience .If Oceaneering cannot guarantee you employment what is the point of doing a course with them .

So Maswov do your course and report back to the forum and let us know how you got on .As for the rest of you keep searching the internet .

Should I see any requirements I will post it on the forum .

Raptor
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If the VA covers it, I will let ya know how it goes.
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Hi maswov

"You are correct in that it will be profitable to run paid training classes, but that is not likely the primary reason to use this model."

12 students X USD$12k = 144k
6 courses/year, 6X144k = 864k/year

ok, lets subtract costs :

Consider that to add a training course at an existing ops facility requires :
one classroom
three instructors at USD$60k/year
one admin staff at "third world" price $10k/year
one ROV that can't be made profitable and costs too much to dispose of : $0

Profit (income $864,00 - costs $190,00) = $674,000/ year

In this day of "next three months profit determine company future" there is no reason to look at "fluffy" benefits of running said course -- bottom line says enough.
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Testing reply function on this thread.
James Mc
Site Admin
www.rovworld.com

Shocked Search First - Ask questions later Thumb Up
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turtle wrote:
Hi maswov

"You are correct in that it will be profitable to run paid training classes, but that is not likely the primary reason to use this model."

12 students X USD$12k = 144k
6 courses/year, 6X144k = 864k/year

ok, lets subtract costs :

Consider that to add a training course at an existing ops facility requires :
one classroom
three instructors at USD$60k/year
one admin staff at "third world" price $10k/year
one ROV that can't be made profitable and costs too much to dispose of : $0

Profit (income $864,00 - costs $190,00) = $674,000/ year

In this day of "next three months profit determine company future" there is no reason to look at "fluffy" benefits of running said course -- bottom line says enough.


Those are some nice assumptions. How much are the hotel rooms, meals, daily transportation, insurance, electricity, equipment, materials, supplies, etc.
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maswov wrote:
turtle wrote:


ok, lets subtract costs :

Consider that to add a training course at an existing ops facility requires :
one classroom
three instructors at USD$60k/year
one admin staff at "third world" price $10k/year
one ROV that can't be made profitable and costs too much to dispose of : $0

Profit (income $864,00 - costs $190,00) = $674,000/ year


Those are some nice assumptions. How much are the hotel rooms, meals, daily transportation, insurance, electricity, equipment, materials, supplies, etc.


maswov

Training courses or not, the commercial operation/facility is already there and being paid for, as is the capital equipment. (ROV's etc).
Not sure who pays for the hotel accommodation or food as I haven't looked into it. Most training establishments do not cover such costs, nor do they usually cover transport costs to and from the training facility.

The profit may not be quite as high as Turtle suggests, but he won't be that far off methinks.

On another note... you'd have to need your head examining if you are going to spend $12k of your own money on a course with the barrel dropping though the floor the way it is! Shocked You might as well piss it into the wind!
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There are many to buy lottery tickets costing penny in hope of winning huge prize money for small amount from their pocket as that is also not a scam, run by many states over the world. Winning it makes Headline world over.
So its for individual to decide to buy it or not.
As about ROVs, anyone (medically fit) can become a ROV PT (trainee), even though he/she does not have any academic background in electronics, electrical, automation and control and some pneumatics/hydraulics, because one has to work as a team member, learn & progress and not as a Jack of all trade. Now again it is up to individual to spare USD 20000.

Getting a permanent contract after doing a course is 100% possible. But question is who guarantees & how it is guaranteed that it will remain permanent?

Many existing permanently employed (for more than 05 years) PTs were forced to sign resigning letter & consent letter of no dues & claims to release their bank guarantee amount. So that this wheel of profiting paid training business keeps on running with grease & oil expenses extracted from prospective future permanent employees' mini piggy banks.
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jamesmc wrote:
maswov wrote:
turtle wrote:


ok, lets subtract costs :

Consider that to add a training course at an existing ops facility requires :
one classroom
three instructors at USD$60k/year
one admin staff at "third world" price $10k/year
one ROV that can't be made profitable and costs too much to dispose of : $0

Profit (income $864,00 - costs $190,00) = $674,000/ year


Those are some nice assumptions. How much are the hotel rooms, meals, daily transportation, insurance, electricity, equipment, materials, supplies, etc.


maswov

Training courses or not, the commercial operation/facility is already there and being paid for, as is the capital equipment. (ROV's etc).
Not sure who pays for the hotel accommodation or food as I haven't looked into it. Most training establishments do not cover such costs, nor do they usually cover transport costs to and from the training facility.

The profit may not be quite as high as Turtle suggests, but he won't be that far off methinks.

On another note... you'd have to need your head examining if you are going to spend $12k of your own money on a course with the barrel dropping though the floor the way it is! Shocked You might as well piss it into the wind!


The facilities are there yes, but to run the class there are operating costs. When determining the cost of something you have fixed and variable costs. The fixed costs are things like rent, taxes, base utilities, etc. Variable costs change with production normally things like utilities, materials, parts, salaries like utilities may have a variable cost aspect as well. Off the top of my head I think insurance and utilities would increase the variable costs, not sure how the instructors are paid but that may increase if more instructors are needed or teach more classes.
Other costs that are included in the $12000 are up to 2 nights hotel in Singapore, hotel in Batam 25 days, 3 meals per day, daily transportation between the hotel and training site, PPE, laundry, transportation between Singapore and Batam, and visa.
So yeah, there will be profit but I don't think the year end bonus will change much.
And I am glad you are confident oil prices will remain low, I am not!
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Hi maswov

Keep that confidence in your own knowledge and ability and go with decisions based on "Off the top of my head". Information and educated tips from Jamesmc and other long time pros in this business (I've been in the ROV game over 30 years and am the former Training Director of an ROV training center). If you do land that coveted first job, just let your crew mates know you don't need any experienced input to decide how you'll proceed -- you'll go far with that attitude.

If you are determined that you will make this great investment in your future then don't bother asking for helpful suggestions from people in the know. You "win" your own argument.

Good luck on your future endeavors.
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turtle wrote:
Hi maswov

Keep that confidence in your own knowledge and ability and go with decisions based on "Off the top of my head". Information and educated tips from Jamesmc and other long time pros in this business (I've been in the ROV game over 30 years and am the former Training Director of an ROV training center). If you do land that coveted first job, just let your crew mates know you don't need any experienced input to decide how you'll proceed -- you'll go far with that attitude.

If you are determined that you will make this great investment in your future then don't bother asking for helpful suggestions from people in the know. You "win" your own argument.

Good luck on your future endeavors.


Just explaining some business basics. I think you guys really got off track from the point that it is not as profitable as you may think. Contrary to what you may think I do listen to advice, but I am smart enough to evaluate what people say and form my own opinions. My opinions about this class have not been stated, but I see you think that I am starstruck with it. Continue to think like that if it helps you sleep at night.
I applaud your 30 years in the industry, but you seem to believe that makes you some sort of a diety. That's cool, maybe it is time for you to retire, I had the same problem in the Navy, I was called a dinosaur and told that it was time for me to retire.
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maswov wrote:
turtle wrote:
Hi maswov

Keep that confidence in your own knowledge and ability and go with decisions based on "Off the top of my head". Information and educated tips from Jamesmc and other long time pros in this business (I've been in the ROV game over 30 years and am the former Training Director of an ROV training center). If you do land that coveted first job, just let your crew mates know you don't need any experienced input to decide how you'll proceed -- you'll go far with that attitude.

If you are determined that you will make this great investment in your future then don't bother asking for helpful suggestions from people in the know. You "win" your own argument.

Good luck on your future endeavors.


Just explaining some business basics. I think you guys really got off track from the point that it is not as profitable as you may think. Contrary to what you may think I do listen to advice, but I am smart enough to evaluate what people say and form my own opinions. My opinions about this class have not been stated, but I see you think that I am starstruck with it. Continue to think like that if it helps you sleep at night.
I applaud your 30 years in the industry, but you seem to believe that makes you some sort of a diety. That's cool, maybe it is time for you to retire, I had the same problem in the Navy, I was called a dinosaur and told that it was time for me to retire.


I love to debate stuff and am more than happy to be quoted, but do struggle a little with responding to anyone whom appears to twist what was written through personal interpretation.

Oh! Thanks for the well intentioned lesson in business basics Smile
The guys got off track? From what I can see one person suggested high profits and I tempered that a little and qualified my response by indicating that I was unware if accommodation and transport will be inlcuded.

maswov wrote:
And I am glad you are confident oil prices will remain low, I am not!


I don't think anyone indicated oil prices will remain low. I know I mentioned they are dropping through the floor, but recent market activity (2014) will support that suggestion by way of being a fact today.

To me what we are seeing now is similar to when the price almost halved between 1985 ($26.92/bbl) and 1986 ($14.44/bbl). Many people lost work. Ships stood around, drill rigs were stacked, things were stagnant for a good while.
It wasn't until around 2003 ($27.69/bbl) that oil once again broke the 1985 price. The offshore industry was very slow to recover up to that period as you might imagine. During the recovery period oil co's were very cautious at throwing money into construction in case they were caught with their pant down again.

Now, you can say what you like about those that have been in the industry since then. One lesson they know is times have never been as hard as they were in that period. It seems now that history is repeating itself. (2013 - $91.17/bbl) Now (Brent crude $57.28 - down 60cents in last 24hrs) which is a 37% drop over the 2013 (averaged) price.
Now. Anyone reading this can either stick their head in the sand and hope that the problem will go away soon, or consider that work may well be short in 2015 by way of a repeat of what happened 30 years ago!

These days, for my sins, I work as a senior offshore Rep on Diving and ROV construction projects for a well known oil company. When you hear stuff in the oil co's offices by way of cutbacks for 2015/16 based on dropping oil prices in 2014, then you have to sit up and take note.

maswov
If you wish to see me retire then you are more than welcome to step up to the plate and fill my shoes. Wink

On the other hand - If you are looking to get into the industry now then read what I wrote earlier:

jamesmc wrote:
you'd have to need your head examining if you are going to spend $12k of your own money on a course with the barrel dropping though the floor the way it is! Shocked You might as well piss it into the wind!


I stand by every word.

Still interested in getting into ROV's? - Take a look again late next year and see where things are leading. By then there may be signs that the oil co's are putting their hands in their pockets once more. I doubt it though.

Re-train
If you are in ROV construction and need an extra feather to add to your cap I'd consider getting some inspection certs under your belt ASAP. As per 85/86, I'm going to suggest that in 2015 demand for construction ROV peeps will drop away, however subsea inspection needs to go on pretty much business as usual.

BTW. Oceaneering own a good chunk of the planets drill support ROV systems. The timing of them setting up a training establishment in Batam could well be a mistake IMHO.
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Well said James.
Regarding the schools, its supply and demand, nothing else. Who can blame them, they make money and get the pick of the new blood. in the end its up to the individuals if they want to spend the money on a course. As you said though, who would want to spend $12k on a course as a way into an industry who's short term future doesn't look rosy. Check back in a year or so, as you say.
The one good thing from a drop in oil prices and potential work, is that it tends to weed out a lot of 'cruisers' from the industry. It could however, go the other way and the bean counters keep hiring the folk who are willing to work for next to nothing and the guys with the actual operational experience struggle to the point of departure from the industry. The industry is full of inexperienced wannabe's at the moment, who THINK that they are experienced, it would be scary if they were left in charge as a majority!

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