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Raptor wrote:
Hi DavieBhoy Welcome to the debate !

Sorry InnerState but like I have all ready said your claim that doing one of these courses helped you get employment .I have not seen any evidence to support this I think the only way to convince you is meeting you up in Aberdeen and show you the inside workings of the HR department .

I'd be interested to see that for sure, buy you a drink as well!

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All the Cvs come in and end up on a hard drive and when projects come up they see who is available ,When there looking for Trainees they look for trades men experienced in hydraulics or electronics .

Agreed, and this is where we differ, I've asked before and you've avoided answering. If you have 2 identical trainees for one position, one trainee having done a course and the other not done a course which one would you choose? Straight forward answer please, not a politicians answer LOL

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Now you were happy to spend over £5500 on a course for most people who have a family to support and a mortgage to pay there going to require a bank loan so that's more load on your already stretched income .If the course was a mandatory requirement fine but its not .( Fact )

I wasn't happy, as I have said before I was on my last chance, about to have my home repossessed, the last thing I wanted to do was spend £5,500 BUT is didn't want to risk not giving myself the best chance.

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lets face facts your first trip as a Trainee your going to be on the winch , Making tea and coffee for the lads , Helping out on Pre and Post dive checks . So it does not matter if you have done a course or not your start at the bottom and your find that your learn more from on job training than any training schools .

You are absolutely WRONG in my case, my first trip in the North Sea was on dive support and with a few minor hiccups I did my full share of work, I came back after 27 days with 70 actual hours in my log book. 2nd trip to Israel gave me over 80 hours of dive support. During quiet times the supervisor was happy for me to set myself tasks away from the work area and gain experience, this time was not logged, in reality I must have done another 60 to 70 hours practicing navigation, in and out of the TMS (valuable when the weather started to come up, supervisor was quite happy with my skills even when we were on the limit weather wise). I don't think any of the above would have happened if I'd gone offshore with 0 hours.

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For those forum members who are thinking about getting into the Rov industry just do a Survival Course that alone will sent you back about a thousand pounds as for the OGUK Medical just look on this site for the details and costs

Once you have got those 2 certs then you can start applying to all the main line Rov company's , However if you do not have a trade in hydraulics or electronics then please do not waste your time or money.

Agreed 100%

Not going to have the last word, over to you!

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Well I will let InnerState have the last word on this Topic as its run its course. Until the next time .

Raptor
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Well I would say that your experience is the exception to the norm.

The same way as people know some butcher, baker, taxi driver who got a start and is now on £5000 a day Very Happy

There are always exceptions. Alas I fear the Training Schools like to use these rather than the reality the majority find (after they have of course paid out all that money.

I have never said that a training course is a waste of time (well, maybe some Smile ) but they definately do not count for as much as what the schools like to advertise and are certainly not worth considering if the rest of someones background is not appropriate.
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rayshields wrote:
Well I would say that your experience is the exception to the norm.

The same way as people know some butcher, baker, taxi driver who got a start and is now on £5000 a day Very Happy

There are always exceptions. Alas I fear the Training Schools like to use these rather than the reality the majority find (after they have of course paid out all that money.

I have never said that a training course is a waste of time (well, maybe some Smile ) but they definately do not count for as much as what the schools like to advertise and are certainly not worth considering if the rest of someones background is not appropriate.


I completely agree with you Ray, 100%

IS
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Did you come from a trade background innerState?
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DavieBhoy wrote:
Did you come from a trade background innerState?


In Brief, Left school, apprentice trained electrician in the steelworks (work involved Hydraulics and High Voltage), studied at college City & Guilds electronics technician, Avery Weighing Scales service engineer working worldwide, various positions afterwards developing microprocessor control systems (hardware, Schematics, PCB layout and software), I.T. Network management (Microsoft and Novel certified).
Hobbies include Private Pilot, Glider Pilot, model flying, Area Chief Examiner for British Model flying Association.

Lots of my skills were appropriate for ROV work.

IS
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sounds like you were a good candidate for selection then. Its CV's like yours that scare me when sending mine out :0.
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DavieBhoy wrote:
sounds like you were a good candidate for selection then. Its CV's like yours that scare me when sending mine out :0.


I do think age was very much against me though, I still feel lucky and privileged.

IS
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Its funny not been on here for some time and I still see the debate for Rov courses is still going strong .

Sorry InnerState but I am in the other camp on this matter , As its all down to gaining experience and value for money . Forget the IMCA guide lines and they are just that guide lines .

In my view doing a 3 or 4 week course or longer gives you very little pre job experience .If the course was say 3 months then yes a would make a difference .
So if I had 2 guys both with similar Cvs and one had done one of these courses I would not automatically pick this person , From looking at your pre job experience you all ready had a good back ground . I wonder what extra skills or knowledge did you gain .

Well I dare say this debate will be going strong for many years to come .
So for those experienced guys out there its going to be a very busy season as for the trainees trying to get a foot hold into the industry the best of luck

Subman
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subman wrote:

In my view doing a 3 or 4 week course or longer gives you very little pre job experience .If the course was say 3 months then yes a would make a difference .
So if I had 2 guys both with similar Cvs and one had done one of these courses I would not automatically pick this person , From looking at your pre job experience you all ready had a good back ground . I wonder what extra skills or knowledge did you gain .

Subman


Hi Subman,

I suppose in reality, peace of mind, comfort factor and not feeling a complete idiot the first time going offshore would have to figure highly in the gains from the course. I totally accept that you very experienced guys probably see little / no value in a course but when one is totally green it is a great confidence booster. The additional benefits like having your CV vetted, the contacts provided etc also help. Despite all whats been said I would still 'waste' my money if I had my time over again.

IS
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Hi Guys,

It has been a while and during that time I have noticed a few super techs or so they would have us believe by the way they so freely give their opinions about courses and the benefits they provide. I have a some what skeptical view of any training establishment that can cast a perceived view of industry requirements and the benefits that they can miraculously impart on an individual with out a technical background. I know that someone knows someone (we all do - get over it!!!) that is in the industry or got a bunch of job offers from doing a course only. Please take the time to think about, maybe it was just a bit of right time / right place or they knew someone? If any course can give someone the technical ability and piloting skills of a proper pilot tech - ie. 1 year as a trainee, 6 to 12 months as a pilot tech 3, 6 to 12 months as a pilot tech 2 and finally reaching the dizzy heights of pilot tech 1 if you did well and are a team player. Again we all know of some people who progressed a little faster and some guys that have made supervisor and then went back to being a sub-eng as they like techy stuff? I for one am sick that these topics are flogged to death by jokers that embellish the truth about their skills when I am sure that a good batch of construction work would probably reveal that the so called pilot tech 2 skills attained by these fly by night training organizations. These are just my and probably a lot of other people's opinions on this dead horse.

regards,

Canuck1
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I am one of those who decided it was worth attending a 3-week ROV Induction Course.

I have now been very fortunate in that I have been offered a start as a trainee.

In a nutshell - for me looking back - i'd have to say luck was as valuable a friend to me as the course. I have a BEng in mechanical engineering and am familiar with hydraulic, mechanical and electrical systems through education and work. However I was never employed with as a technician or with a directly hands-on role. To me - this was a huge negative on my CV as I was aware that operators value the practical, competent, hands on ability of pilot techs as well as their analytic ability to solve problems.

I am a hands on person but how could I show this? I wasn’t going to strip an engine block during the interview. The course allowed me to better prove this type of competence as opposed to me simply turning up and saying in an interview - "I'm happy to get stuck in and I know what im doing, honest I do."

Naturally, it also showed my direct commitment to the ROV industry. And there's something to be said for simply putting myself in a position where going into the interviews - i could speak with that little extra confidence because I was pre-armed with this course. For me - this was a good help.

However - although the course was valuable for me - looking back I would conclude that luck played an equally valuable part of my application and I would be unlikely to recommend that someone else follow me - unless they had my particular type of background. No course or qualification can take away the fact that there are many hundreds (thousands?) of applicants seeking the same post. So even when you deduct the no-hopers, this means there are still significantly more suitable applicants for any one post - and so if your CV is not top of the pile on that day, when the HR person decides to select people for interview etc. (after already passing one or two of their mates CV's into the fastlane) the chances of selection are slim.

I have a solid basis in hydraulics and electronics and so doing courses in these subjects didnt appeal to me. The impression I have today is that the interviewers are simply looking for the following two things in a trainee:

1. Someone who gets on well with other people (and within the offshore environment) PRIMARY
2. Someone who demonstrates an aptitude for performing practical technical work.

The technical assessments I took and the interviews were all geared towards gauging these two areas. The technical tests were of a very fundamental level - because at the end of the day - as a trainee - they dont expect you to know everything. In fact, the company I am starting with are putting all the trainees through 'basic' hydraulics and electrical courses!

Should you do an ROV course?
In most cases - No. Without the luck (that you can do nothing about) you're better off making calls, making contacts, keeping your spirits up and staying polite but determined. The only way your chances are going to improve, is by sticking in the hunt and allowing father time to give you another throw of the dice.


My large nutshell Wink

T1000
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we have just had a guy come out from UK on his first trip as a trainee , he is a decent guy ex army keen as mustard and has spent so far over £8500 on training but the worrying thing is that he has no basic electronic or mechanical skills or trade background , he was an army storeman previously , I will see how he gets on over the next few weeks .
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liddelljohn wrote:
we have just had a guy come out from UK on his first trip as a trainee , he is a decent guy ex army keen as mustard and has spent so far over £8500 on training but the worrying thing is that he has no basic electronic or mechanical skills or trade background , he was an army storeman previously , I will see how he gets on over the next few weeks .


Would your company be interested in me , im planning to do my Eng 1 this year and Offshore courses, i am qualified as a mechanical maintenace engineer, i can also weld and fabricate including stainless steel Tig welding , have a reasonable understanding of how electrics work, im looking to relocate to south east asia to our second home , what do you think Smile
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liddelljohn wrote:
we have just had a guy come out from UK on his first trip as a trainee , he is a decent guy ex army keen as mustard and has spent so far over £8500 on training but the worrying thing is that he has no basic electronic or mechanical skills or trade background , he was an army storeman previously , I will see how he gets on over the next few weeks .


Hope the guy works out ok.

It's not really the chaps fault if he's unsuitable for the job, it's the employers error by not making sure he had a suitable background before giving him the job in the first place. Maybe they'll put him on some training courses etc.
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InnerState wrote:
jamesmc wrote:
The whole...

We can probably also agree that for a technically trained person attending an ROV course it will not better prepare them to work offshore than not attending a course. They will gain little knowledge of the type needed offshore IMHO.


I think this is where we will have to disagree james..........

The technical aspects I absolutely agree BUT for people that have never worked offshore, never seen an ROV IMHO benefit quite a bit from the course experience. I appreciate from you experienced guys you probably wont see/understand this viewpoint but for me I got the following from the course:-

1) I learned about LIM's, never come across them in 40 years of working life.
2) Sonar, I had never used before, during the course I used it extensively.
3) Launch and recovery procedures, variations with 'A' frame and Crane type launch
4) Working with divers
5) My CV was vetted and I was advised what to include, what to remove etc
6) Several talks re potential employers

and more

All of this, along with practical flying experience IMHO was worth the money TO ME.

IMHO doing a course will do no harm and may do potentially a bit of good. It's not the magical solution that some people may think, it does however give some understanding of what's going on. The real question is, is it worth the money to you personally, only the individual can decide that.

IS


You can get all the above as a trainee at the company workshop and in your first trip offshore and be paid for the privilege of learning.

I can't support the idea of ROV training schools because quite simply they are in the business to make profit. They have no concern on taking students hard earned money, flooding the market with cheap labour knowing full well that there is likely no job at the end of it for 80% (guessing) of those that pass through their doors!

I've seen advertising from schools [i]along the lines of ; 'Due to the high demand for ROV Pilot Techs offshore we offer training to IMCA standards. You will qualify as an IMCA PTII' etc etc.

Not too many years back there were almost no training schools. Now they are popping up all over, along with the the plethora of ROV agencies that have cropped up over the last few years. It's way OTT IMHO! Our industry needs neither type of establishments in such numbers! It just cheapens the ROV labour market and pushes rates down as more and more trainees are pumped out of the system and more and more agencies try to push poor rates whilst vying to secure contracts with their clients.

At least if you secure an ROV trainee slot with a company you are going to get work afterwards and you'll have not paid for the training.. they will have paid you!


Last edited by jamesmc on 04:57 Sun 12 Jan 14; edited 1 time in total

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