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DJansen wrote:
... or paying all their guys the same regardless of exp or ability ?

DJ,

This is where I think the misunderstanding is coming in... Your saying you should be paid according to your experience and abilities. The problem is that your experience and abilities aren't in as much demand anymore.

The companies don't (and shouldn't have to) pay for someone who is qualified to fly a 747, when a Piper Cub Pilot would do... Now if they need your skills and experience, yes they should pay for those appropriately, but not every job needs those skills.

Chief
Submerged Recovery & Inspection Services
www.submergedrecovery.com
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Chief,
Following your line of thought would tend to lead to companies saying to other trades similar things like,a diver only has to go to the bottom of the leg and tie on a downlinme so he needs no experience and he only gets paid half of what the other divers who have to inspect the leg for a certain amount of pay and another amount for a diver cleaning the leg.
Or could it be that this pilot only has to watch the sub in the tms so he doesnt need quals and we can pay him 10 bucks to sit on his arse and a different pilot can fly to the work place for 30 bucks and another can work on the job for 50 bucks.
So come on everybody working offshore you can come out here but the company will only pay you if they need you to do anything.
Sorry Chief but get real.
Why do you think there is so much complaining going on when there is only one experienced man on a team with the rest of the spaces filled with bums on seats.
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tc1 wrote:
Chief,
Following your line of thought would tend to lead to companies saying to other trades similar things like,a diver only has to go to the bottom of the leg and tie on a downlinme so he needs no experience and he only gets paid half of what the other divers who have to inspect the leg for a certain amount of pay and another amount for a diver cleaning the leg.
Or could it be that this pilot only has to watch the sub in the tms so he doesnt need quals and we can pay him 10 bucks to sit on his arse and a different pilot can fly to the work place for 30 bucks and another can work on the job for 50 bucks.
So come on everybody working offshore you can come out here but the company will only pay you if they need you to do anything.
Sorry Chief but get real.
Why do you think there is so much complaining going on when there is only one experienced man on a team with the rest of the spaces filled with bums on seats.

Sorry TC1, but I can't follow your line of thought here... You should get paid for what the job is worth and the skill level needed to complete it. Why shoudl a company pay for extra or excessive skill levels they deem aren't needed?

Chief
Submerged Recovery & Inspection Services
www.submergedrecovery.com
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Chief
A proper qualified pilot/tech is what he is.Granted the existing standard is very grey,however a pilot tech is a pilot tech who should be capable of performing a wide range of tasks.He is paid as a pilot/tech,Not paid a certain amount for what a company wants him to do.
IE if you want a proper qualified plumber who is maybe paid 20bucks per hour with a minimum amount of time for refiting a sink in your house.By your reckoning if you want the same plumber to fit a tap washer you only want to pay him perhaps 5bucks an hour with no minimum.Please come into the 21st century.
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i suppose the next thing Chief wants in the evolvement of the rov industry is for people who are invited to work for a company to fill in a bill of quantities with a rate beside each item prior to getting the job.Please get real.By the way I slipped towards being a dinosaur once but I realised my mistake and got back into the real world.
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Chief,

Scott- I'm not saying some folks aren't worth what they are asking for.
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I've seen some folks do some amazing flying in unbelievable conditions, but a lot of the times companies don't need someone that has that many qualifications (i.e. they are over qualified) or that skill set. Most companies are looking for someone who can get the simple jobs done, not the overly complex ones. I was working with a dive company that has a WROV and a full time crew for it (9 personnel). Last year they billed out the ROV for a little over 225 days to customers. The Supervisor told me that they actually did work class work, less than 12 hours the entire year... talk about wasted resources. I mean, if they use the dive tenders on their vessels to manage tether, you could have used a small inspection calss ROV to do more than 99% of their work, which was to observe diving operations, send the video out via satellite and record evertything. I guess the bottom line is that if they need experienced personnel they ar going to pay for it, if they don't need all that experience, why sould they pay for it?



Simple

If you hire a work class vehicle and crew then you pay for a work class vehicle and crew regardless of what they do as the rate you hire at includes the system and crew.

If you only want an eyeball system then hire an eyeball system with which you will receive the rate for the system and the required crew.

If you want a workclass system only because that maybe 5percent of the work it needs to do is actually workclass required then tough make your decision on which system you want and dont start trying to delve into personnel pockets to reduce your costs.

Remember make decisions based on safety not MONEY as we have all seen where that leads.
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Chief,
This is not personal and is not an attack or a pissing contest with yourself.


Having read your website I think I now see where you are coming from.

During the eighties and nineties I, like you,owned and operated a company which was predominately diving.

One of my tools back then was a small rov which I purchased for use in allowing me to eyeball jobs without the need to put a diver in the water.
I learned how to operate the vehicle myself and also taught some of my project managers to operate it too.Following the guarentee period,for maintenance, I used my previous experience and knowledge to maintain the vehicle in working order.


The problems came when I decided I would require an rov for an offshore and inshore project that I was pricing.Unfortunately for me the specifications by the client included the requirement for a fully certificated sub complete with qualified personnel.

The only way I could price this job was by cross hiring a sub and crew from an rov operator,which in turn increased my price to the client for what in fact was just a very small part of the contract.To my surprise I won the contract and from that day on, I learned, that even though I had a sub as a tool for my own use for day to day mundain looks at jobs from above instead of freezing in the north sea,I was still able to crosshire a sub from an rov operator and win contracts without thinking I could make more money by asking my divers to multi task as rov pilots for the same pay.My divers were already multi tasking to a huge degree on variouus skills.

Judging by what you do on your website I see that you are maybe in the same position as I was all those years ago and only use rovs infrequently on a particular job and it grates on you having to pay men to be there.

Im sorry bud but this is the 21st century now and there are many bone fide rov companies both large and small who could work with you when pricing jobs.Please dont fall into the routine of shaving your cost by using suspect techs who may cause you a bad reputation amongst clients when something goes wrong.Your reputation is only as good as your last job when you are running a business.

I take my hat off to you in what you are doing in business and I hope you go from strength to strength.
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Just to add my six pence in Smile
There are a lot of "ROV pilots" that have spent their whole ROV life (5 to 10 odd years) doing drill support with a work class and nothing else.
There are a lot of "ROV Pilots" that have spent their whole life ( 5 to 10 years) doing Platform inspection with a small ROV and nothing else.
There are also some that have only spent their time on trenching machines.......... Boring !
Now swap their jobs round........................... !
The trenchers are shite at flying causing the small ROV to have breakdowns or lost Shocked Why should these "Big guns get paid more money ?
The small ROV pilot damages the Workclass 'cause he forgets the power and size behind him plus looks blank when asked to change the HCU out or drain it Shocked
Why should these "Boy racers" get paid the same as the "Donkey" who has spent all his time day in and day out plodding from the TMS to the Tree hmmm Cool Not exactly great flying skills and once you know the basics ie Compass bearings /Sonar.................... You can do it with ya eyes shut ,.................. Wel I can Laughing
So it's down to what the pilot is worth in saving the company money or profits in the end Cool
But there should be a base rate for a qualified Pilot/Tech. = experience Shocked
Trainee is just that , Trainee !
On average working half a year offshore on a 12 hour shift /sharing gives you 1068 hrs.
That is to say working at least half a year OFFSHORE Cool
Doing what exactly............................................ Wink
Drill support ? Platform inspection ? Pipeline Inspection ? Trenching ? Demolition ? Accident investigation ?
How many pilots do you know has ex amount of hours on all these subjects with different types of vehicles to be called experienced Rolling Eyes
So you go on a Platfrom inspection contract with a guy from an agency who is being paid the same amount of money as you only to find he is a complete Cluster F#£k and damages the vehicle because of lousy flying and then breaks the ROV because he does not know how to fix what he's broke on deck !
5 years experience ........................ My Ass Laughing
Put ya brain in gear before ye open thy gob !
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Lostboy,
Your input is well appreciated.Why dont you help us out and send an email to IROVA with your proposals for team size,make up etc.

Should keep you going for a while bud.
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I have already Very Happy
Put ya brain in gear before ye open thy gob !
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TC1- I never took it as a personal attack. In fact i like a good healthy debate. Just to clarify, I use an ROV on just about every job (once in a grey while, it'll be sonar only).

I just have a fundamental disagreement that you should get paid the same or better for a job this year as you did last year. Times change, and you can either change/adapt with them or wihter on the vine so to speak. Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it goes down.

When people start demanding more money when in reality the the value to the customer isn't in line with it, that's when unions start taking over etc... Once the unions have control, they destroy an industry (like the US Auto industry) or they wreck a country, like Greece.

Chief
Submerged Recovery & Inspection Services
www.submergedrecovery.com
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No they don't Very Happy
Put ya brain in gear before ye open thy gob !
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It's simple really.. I want more money each year because of 'Inflation'
My cost of living goes up pretty much every year.. So my compensation has to rise as well.. If my cost of living was the same as 10 yrs back I wouldn't need a payrise..

ROV companies increase their hire-out rates if the market will stand it and if it won't they try to reduce costs by cutting into what they have to pay crew..

In the long run it's cheaper to hire experienced and motivated crew.. Getting some 'bodies' in cos they are cheap doesn't say much for a companies commitment to quality or safety'

Padding out the crew with trainees, or pushing guys up the promotion ladder to soon but paying them less than the going rate are all shonky business practices and go completely against the 'nothing is more important than safety and quality' mantra that most companies expouse..

After all which plumbing co would you use ? The one with time served qualified plumbers or the one using cheap wetback labour ?

You pays ya money.. The day your 'trainee' Supv looses your sub the 'expensive' experienced guys dayrate will suddenly look cheap ..
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Lostboy-are you one of those silly pro-union boys? Unions are always in the mix of things gone bad...

DJ, I understand you wanting more money, and I'm not opposed to you getting it, but at the same time doesn't the person hiring have a right to want more money in their pocket by cutting personnel expenses??? As far as your question about who I would hire, I would wittle down the list this way: Those that are qualified and have suitable/verifialbe references, their ability to meet my time schedule, price.

Chief
Submerged Recovery & Inspection Services
www.submergedrecovery.com
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Chief ,
Nope Smile

But I canna stand Benefit cheats , Scammers , Wide mouth frogs or Muppets Very Happy
Put ya brain in gear before ye open thy gob !

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