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There has been a lot of talk regarding the divers agreement thing that they negotiated.

Well spotted! I'd love to compare it with another subsea vocational group if you would be kind enough to suggest a more apt one?
But why compare at all? How about we work jointly with them? You see what I mean by this later in this post.

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Out of utter curiosity is there any sort of draft agreement in place yet for the ROV industry

Yes, there is a draft agreement in existence. It was started last year in the OILC/RMT union members board in this forum. For obvious reasons non union members wouldn't have seen it, as it was a document being developed by union members to help create a union agreement between the union and the employers. I see no reason why those that choose (quite freely) not to be part of the OILC branch of the RMT should have any information or knowledge on such an agreement until it comes into force. Join and you are welcome to have your say. Others may disagree.

For equally obvious reasons, the framework was based on the divers agreement. Due consideration was given to it being based around another Subsea vocational agreement but there isn't one. So, why re-invent the wheel when the basic shape is there already?
The draft ROV agreement has now been transferred over to the union ROV board at the OILC EiE forum: Here
The ROV agreement has recently been locked against further development, pending the outcome of a poll currently running (in the Subsea general board which heads ROV, Diving, Inspection and Survey) on whether a combined blanket Subsea agreement should be adopted to cover all those related to Subsea operations. The poll is open to all Subsea Forum members. The results are currently weighted in favour of a joint blanket agreement.
The basic idea of a Subsea blanket agreement is that ROV and Diving (there's the 'D' word again) work collectively for bargaining power and also add in, and thus offer some form of protection, those vocations that do not have sufficient numbers to do so on a stand alone basis (such as Inspection co-ordinators). The feeling is that if ROV and Diving join forces that would tip the scale overall.

The blanket agreement idea is Subsea orientated.
I see no issue with adding Subsea Inspection co-ordinators into the agreement as they are always involved with Subsea operations be it an ROV or Diving project.
The problem with adding riggers into such an agreement, is already partly solved as they are already party to the divers agreement. It currently only covers them when they are working on Diving projects (not ROV projects - yet)..plus Riggers are not covered by the agreement if they are working on a drill rig or platform, where they are not part of the Subsea team.
The same would have to apply to Survey.


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........and if so what kind of protection is being thought of for agency workers which make up a big percentage of the ROV staff being used within the industry.

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Being deliberately a pain aside if there is nothing within this agreement to assist/support agency workers then there is no point in signing up to it.

Think out of the box a little eh?
Divers (Bugger! I used the 'D' word again... sorry) are day rate direct which isn't that far removed from being agency. We (ROV and Divers) are all freelance in that respect.
When you have an agreed day rate.... that is the offshore rate you receive whether you are agency or not.
What agencies get out of it is up to them to negotiate with the operators in addition to the agreed rate that you receive.

The rate would be clearly written in black and white in the agreement. If you are not getting that rate offshore then they are in breach of the agreement. You call the union, they call your employer (for that job). If they don't correct the issue the union will highlight the error of their ways to the oil company (I have been on a job where this happened so have seen the results first hand)... a lot of back peddling starts around that point in time. The methodology is simple enough.

Right now (with no agreement in place) agencies agree any old rate with the operators and try to sell it to the people on their books. It seems that the operators are applying pressure to push rates down and some agencies are buckling, they in turn then put pressure on the agency guys to take the lower rates and so it goes on... the Yo-Yo effect mentioned in my last post.

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The other major concern I have is if the payrate is set to high then a lot of agencies workers may end up seeing massive differences in day rates between working in and out of the North sea area. I.E. you may get £450 a day in the north sea but then find working in Egypt for example the rate might drop to say £300 a day as employers try to make back some of the wage bill by cutting rates outside of the North sea and some of the other areas with these kind of agreements.
This would make any financial planning very difficult due to potential earnings for the year being potentially very varied.


Better ROV types will hang out where the money is for sure. If there are not enough jobs to go around then there are too many ROV peeps chasing work. In time natural selection will take care of that.
Plus with agreed UK rates in place you will not see any (less capable) foreign nationals being employed in the North sea.
As for varied annual income due to (in your exact words) "payrate is set to high" in the UK sector. The rate would not be set too high. It would be set at an appropriate level that the industry can sustain.
Again... as a divers (there's that word again), guys would work in the North sea and overseas, rates would vary considerably but if you follow a similar pattern year by year.. North Sea in the UK summer and overseas in the UK winter, your annual income would settle on an average and therefore does not fluctuate that much.

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.........but at the same time every pilot good or bad is in an agreement negotiation a number and as everyone is saying numbers matter.

Sorry, I didn't get that bit at all.


Last edited by jamesmc on 23:40 Sat 03 Oct 09; edited 1 time in total
James Mc
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www.rovworld.com

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sounds like good progress indeed !
Talk in anger and you'll make the best speech you'll ever regret.

www.savante.co.uk
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Hi all,

Numbers folks..... Think of it this way, we take a chance by becoming dayraters (a bit of a gamble) soooo, why not take a chance and become a Yuni0n member (even us non-UK citizens)?????
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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Unless of course you think your job is on tender hooks because you don't have the experience Smile
But you know.................. It's a small industry Very Happy
Put ya money where your mouth is !
Put ya brain in gear before ye open thy gob !
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AND.... slack season is coming up again Lost.... Got no work lads? Retainers would be nice!!!!! Wouldn't they???

Have any of us talked about insurance woes? The company I presently work for has good coverage. Anyone else (perhaps a new thread - in fact, I'll do that now.)
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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James, Scot, Savante, Lostboy and all the other Pro RMT Uni0n folks...

I like many others that I've talked with are not "anti-uni0n", we are however very much anti RMT Uni0n. Collective bargaining is a good thing for the workers, the problem is all of the baggage RMT brings with it. Unfortunately if anyone does a little research into the RMT, they'll see that they are not about protecting jobs, collective bargaining, but advancing a political agenda. An agenda that supports abortion on demand, appeasing terrorists and supporting marxism.

So rather than James "a" or "b" choice, how about "c"... Band together and form your own collective bargaining group without all the political BS... I think you'd find a lot more people would be willing to support that, than having no voice or say in the RMT...

Chief
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Chief wrote:
James, Scot, Savante, Lostboy and all the other Pro RMT Uni0n folks...

I like many others that I've talked with are not "anti-uni0n", we are however very much anti RMT Uni0n. Collective bargaining is a good thing for the workers, the problem is all of the baggage RMT brings with it. Unfortunately if anyone does a little research into the RMT, they'll see that they are not about protecting jobs, collective bargaining, but advancing a political agenda. An agenda that supports abortion on demand, appeasing terrorists and supporting marxism.

So rather than James "a" or "b" choice, how about "c"... Band together and form your own collective bargaining group without all the political BS... I think you'd find a lot more people would be willing to support that, than having no voice or say in the RMT...

Chief



Hey dude... (pm me)...

You are one of the very few people that have mentioned this - well done.... you have caught our hints (mostly mine) If you read back in old threads, I was hinting that direction... Any takers, a few per region????
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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James, Scot, Savante, Lostboy and all the other Pro RMT Uni0n folks...


Actually I'm decidedly anti-union. It's incompatible with my role offshore as I have had to face off with Norwegian union types. Wouldn't work. Laughing

But I do think that the attempts to generate a set of "minimum contracting standards", especially using consensus agreement [herding cats] from a large pool of ROVers, is worth recognition and a fair bit of respect too.
Talk in anger and you'll make the best speech you'll ever regret.

www.savante.co.uk
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Well Chief , I like the sound of what you are saying Smile
I did not wish to join the union but due to the present "Political" situation and Recession and the flooding of the Industry of Non-discrypt "Muppets" Shocked Have forced me to join "A" union which the RMT appear to be the only one to take on our cause. I do not have the time or the clout or enough knowledge on the wheeling and dealing of cooperate management. I said right from the start That I would join a ROV Union ,maybe if James had one . I would join Very Happy
Unfortunately The RMT is the only one at the momento.
Would you care to start up a union Chief ?
Put ya brain in gear before ye open thy gob !
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Oh , By the way Smile
Unions are about the collective , By the people for the people Cool
That is part of marxism Laughing You had me laughing there Laughing
Being a capitalist and a patriot I see paying a Union in order to get what I want as the right thing to do Very Happy
A bit selfish really , I know Confused But If this union is the only one that has the balls to take on the Oil Giants , then , I'm All for it ! Twisted Evil
Put ya brain in gear before ye open thy gob !
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Chief wrote:
James, Scot, Savante, Lostboy and all the other Pro RMT Uni0n folks...


I have said this before and I will say it again. I am not Pro RMT union.
I am, however, pro collective bargaining through the initiative set up by members of the OILC branch of the RMT. The OILC branch is not a typical representation of the RMT and it's political workings! The OILC was formed to represent workers in the offshore energy sector. The RMT was never formed to do that.

Chief wrote:

So rather than James "a" or "b" choice, how about "c"... Band together and form your own collective bargaining group without all the political BS... I think you'd find a lot more people would be willing to support that, than having no voice or say in the RMT...[/b]



This is way off topic and verging on hijacking. This thread is nothing to do with whether we should form an ROV association or whatever... if you want to discuss that I have started another thread HERE.

Plus ...... Look at the way that suggestion was written!
Not...
form our own collective bargaining group
but....
Form your own collective bargaining group

So the suggestion being made is by someone that does not actually view themselves as being part of the very group they are suggesting.

A new topic and poll has been added on the above idea.

If you wish to discuss forming an ROV association (or whatever) you may do so HERE

Please continue to discuss along the original lines of this thread from this point forward..........
James Mc
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www.rovworld.com

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I am endeavouring to get some more numbers out of the OILC branch organisers on progress made so far on the number of ROV personnel now in the RMT.

Some of you may be somewhat surprised to know that in the last 12 months over 500 people (offshore energy workers) have joined the OILC branch of the RMT. Of course they are not all subsea but I do know that a significant number of ROV have flooded into the branch after SS7's recent policies.

This implies that the branch will become one of the most powerful branches in the RMT and is be purely focused on the offshore energy sector. No RMT trains and taxi driver stuff being discussed there!

As far as the OILC EiE forum goes (this is only the forum mind you) People have to sign up to the forum, they are not automatically added when they join the OILC branch of the RMT.
What I can tell you is that there are now

Total OILC branch Forum members: 134

Total ROV Forum members: 44
James Mc
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Is the RMT still interested in the offshore industry? I remember a big push to get everyone in and get the ball rolling. Is it just me or has it lost more momentum than a sub hitting the deck. What have I gained for however much a month for the last year? Is there really a place for a union in the rov world? Because from how I see it there hasn’t been much drive from the union side or maybe I’m miss informed and it’s all gone over my head during my last returm. I took the steps, singed the forms and paid the money but haven’t seen any real results. Not a happy customer.
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Neil,

Have you anything to add or discuss?
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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TTLchip wrote:
Is the RMT still interested in the offshore industry?

I'm not too sure anybody ever suggested that the RMT was ever overly interested in the offshore industry. Past History has shown that to be the case. Trains are a different matter! Wink

The OILC (as a branch of the RMT) is a totally different animal though. It was a standalone union but joined forces with the RMT some time back. It was basically too small to organise the whole of the North Sea sector and as such needed serious union muscle to help back it up. As a branch of the RMT The OILC is very interested in the offshore industry but not that interested in Trains!

The OILC may only be a branch however, with swelling membership numbers due to more offshore members (not only subsea but North Sea as a whole) joining the branch the RMT is having to pay more attention to the needs of its offshore industry members. I would suggest that the OILC branch is probably now the biggest branch in the RMT as far as membership goes and has a lot more clout within the RMT now. Take a look at the North sea and you can see that the branch membership potential runs into the thousands. By the way.. you should ensure that you are a member of the OILC branch of the RMT and not some other branch that may only be focused on shipping or trains!

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I remember a big push to get everyone in and get the ball rolling. Is it just me or has it lost more momentum than a sub hitting the deck.

The membership continues to grow and the ball is rolling... albeit far more slowly than many would like to see, myself included. Progress is being made.

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Is there really a place for a union in the rov world? Because from how I see it there hasn’t been much drive from the union side or maybe I’m miss informed and it’s all gone over my head during my last returm.

It worked for the Norwegians (ROV & Diving), It worked for the Australians (ROV & Diving). It's worked for the UK (Divers). Why wouldn't it work for the rest of the UK subsea sector?
The drive is not only to be looked for from the union but also from it's members. The union needs feedback from it's members and, if the union is too slow to react then it's members need to bang the point home until they do react. Slowly the RMT is becoming more focused on the offshore industry but that will only continue of it's members demand it do so.
The OILC (your branch) is fully focused on the offshore industry

Lack of information on the OILC/RMT activities?
You may not find too much information on what is going in OILC/RMT wise in this forum because ROVworld is not here to represent one particular union or another. This board only serves for the purpose of allowing General Union Discussions. That is not to say that it doesn't get OILC/RMT specific at times but equally it could cover the MUA *for example in a much detail on occasions.
There was an OILC/RMT board on this site but it has been locked out for months now in favour of the official OILC branch Forum.

OILC branch specific information & activities
Have you joined the OILC branch on-line Forum? There is some more recent information on there. There is also full union contact information provided at the site. If you are not happy about something, how about you contact the OILC branch secretary and ask them what's going on rather than add a few paragraphs to an international forum such as this. I can guarantee that the branch secretary will answer you in person.. He is that kind of guy and one of those that is as proactive as we could hope for on the Subsea side of things. Contact Neil Rothnie by email on: oilc.secretary@googlemail.com

TTLchip wrote:
I took the steps, singed the forms and paid the money but haven’t seen any real results. Not a happy customer.

As divers it took us years to get an agreement in place. It won't happen in in a year... but given that there was literally bugger all activity on the subsea union front before 2008 progress has been made in the last 12 months and more is to come in 2010. The wheels have slowly been turning over the winter and the first step forward will come out in a matter of weeks not months. It will most likely be announced by email to all union members and also added to the OILC forum although I am sure non-union members will hear about it through the grapevine or posts in this forum.


Last edited by jamesmc on 06:02 Thu 28 Apr 11; edited 1 time in total

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