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They never do!!



mind-when-this-was-fields wrote:
http://www.offshore247.com/news/art.aspx?Id=13435
Rather interesting reading Very Happy
Yep, so revenues are down so we all have to dig in and reduce rates to help the majors haha
Funny but when the prices were sky high you never heard of the majors handing out big money to the minions.....
best regards

Clive Hutchings
chutchings@strgroup.co.uk

Tel: 0044 2392 322 322
Mob. 0044 7881 920079
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Clive. Stick with it. At least here you may gain the kind of knowledge that might work in your favour and not only help you, but also the people you are trying to act on behalf of.

Guys n Gals... reading between the lines, it appears that Clive is prepared to go back to his client(s)with suggested rates.
For those that may be inclined to work for a genuine rate, you might wish to send your expected rate to him in the first instance.
I would consider last years rates (+ a reasonable percentile increase) as a starting point. Quote silly money and it will be blown out of the door in the first instance. In that case you'll not improve your chances (or any agency) of making the deal happen.

I know there are many good/experienced ROV people out there that they expect a reasonable rate.


Employers/Ops managers

I feel that you might wish to stop pussy footing around, trying to save a few bucks, and admit that offering a fair rate for the job (for the right people) will increase your profitability (and sustainability of your systems) in the long run.
This cheap shot approach, of using cheaper less inexperienced people on jobs in the false hope that it will save money, will only end in tears.
Pull your heads out of the sand and fix the problem or your company may be the next one down the pan! Oh yes.. and as a result you as an ops manager may well find that it's you looking for a new job!

best regards

James Mc
James Mc
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That's a good point James.. But funny though it seems. It apears that many Op's managers don't see lost subs and damaged equipment as detremental to their career. They write reports and bemoan the quality of staff and end up with a promotion.. Let's face it. Most office staff are 'failed' offshore types or blokes that never even made it that far.. If you are good offshore or any use operating/repairing the vehicles the companies can't afford to waste you in 'the office'... Pencil pushers and bean counter types are ten a penny... useful, practical and experienced offshore hands are as rare as rockin horse shite... Blokes in the office are only interested in their 'career' and making themselves look good.. .. Too bad most of them don't realise if they paid decent rates they'd get good staff and the rest would be easy... we'd make them look good and they'd have an easy life... Remember the days of faxing a one page report once a Month ? My first boss told me, ''If you have to call the office for a solution, you're the wrong man for the job''
They didn't want us to call.. just get it fixed and get on with the job... Nowadays you can't do anything without consulting some 'tech manager' johnny. Rolling Eyes Just in case he get's upset...
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Clive,

Yes, I agree with James and believe that you may try to make a difference. Keep the brass cajones on and I wish you the best of luck! Shame I don't have an OLF... maybe another one, another time...

James,

I can think of many mngr types that should be / should've been out the door yonks ago.

Djan,

Remember those days very well... where we, the backbone of the company, the moneymakers - keepers, were given a system to "micro-manage" and treat it as our own... remember that? Where da eff did that go? And at the end of a job (usually well done) more than just an atta boy and a pat on the head. Said it before, the industry is going down the toilet. Remember when you had: 1 x ops. mgr., 1 x marketing dude, 2 secretaries (one for accts.), 1 x GM/marketing, 1 x shop dude, and 1 x purchasing dude / dudess for.... drum roll.... 8+ ROV systems and up to 100 ROV personnel. Seems it's the other way around now... sad
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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Interesting stats on this thread.

Over 2600 reads and only 54 replies!

The numbers say the thread grabbing a lot of attention, but not too many people willing to pitch in and air their views.
James Mc
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www.rovworld.com

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jamesmc wrote:
Interesting stats on this thread.

Over 2600 reads and only 54 replies!

The numbers say the thread grabbing a lot of attention, but not too many people willing to pitch in and air their views.


Or a lot of them are people who have started in the last 2 or 3 years and dont have the experience behind them to know any better about pay Smile
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Galleon,

I agree with what you say above... there are BS artists (old hands) still in the industry. I've seen too many of em'. Guys that have only one discipline, can't fly around a barn, and talk about themselves incessantly.

But I'll add this bit to your "rant" above.... there are some of us (and I'm not getting on a soap box, getting huffy-puffy-chested, or patting myself on the back) who ARE needed re: ol' farts. Without us, there would be a return of 1986, 1991, & 1996-7 disasters involving safety (personnel) & loss of assets.
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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Interestingliy enough I looked back on your views and critiicisms Galleon and it appears you have one big chip on your shoulder in regarding "Old Farts" Confused
Did something ........................... happen to you ?
was it a .............. Bad experience Rolling Eyes
In regards to James original thread I'm one of those "middle aged farts"
(Not to be confused with an "Old fart" but still with plenty of experience)
And I am "hanging in there" for a better rate.
But your idea of medicals being more stringent , WOW Shocked
If you put everyone through a commercial diving medical that works offshore in the North Sea , it would create a massive void in the OIL and Gas Industry worldwide Confused
There would only be a sixth of the workforce medically fit and then you , Galleon , can be a proficient Supervisor or Superintendant wowing all the Greenhorns with your undoubted prowess as a ROV expert in the field Very Happy
Put ya brain in gear before ye open thy gob !
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galleon wrote:


There are also a lot of guys that need to retire due to health/age issues, but due to the reasons stated above...they are unable to retire. That's ok when they start dropping dead on the deck the companies will have to start taking a harder look at those medicals they make us take every year.


I'm trying to see what your point may be in conjunction with the title of this thread. How might "guys needing to retire due to health issues" be connected with the logic behind people taking pay cuts due to the economic downturn?

Are you suggesting that if people were to retire due to health/age issues the rates would improve for the remaining younger ROV operators?

If so, I feel that you may have misjudged the way companies work their pay strategy. Younger people are generally easy to manipulate due to heavier financial commitments... mortgage, car loans, family, kids etc. It's the older, and generally more financially stable, guys that are able to hang out for better rates. In so doing they help the younger ones by keeping the rates higher than they as a 'young' group would ordinarily be able to do alone. The idea is we can be more effective, and get better results as a team, by working together. However, there are some that fail to see the bigger picture, and could upset the equilibrium with ill thought out reasoning. This probably is a result of lack of experience, but that can often be found in younger people.

On the subject of medicals... they are taken every two years in the North sea, not annually. Not sure what that has to do with the thread title either.

Lets try and get back on track.......

Pay cut due to the economic downturn. Why?


Last edited by jamesmc on 15:32 Tue 21 Apr 09; edited 1 time in total
James Mc
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www.rovworld.com

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Yes...

Back to this....

2 items: Greed and insecurity of office personnel. Simple - anyone else agree?
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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Gentlemen, I’m one of the many that has read this thread and not yet replied. I guess I am a not-quite-newbie, with 5 years experience and only a couple of jobs as supervisor, but comfortable as a Senior pilot-tech. I will agree with anyone who says I am not a superstar technically, but I am competent with a good work ethic, steady in a crisis, and am willing to go the distance when the Sh*t hits the fan.
Maybe I don’t schmooze as well as some: I certainly don’t put others down to self-aggrandize, like a certain supervisor I know who is only interested in his next beer.
But, it’s been close to 6 months since I last got the call. So, maybe I am being weeded out, maybe I am less useful than I thought, maybe the ops manager for the company I usually work for thinks I’m a [banned word].
The point of all this, is that while I agree, in principle, with all you say about day rates, I am not in a good bargaining position. I expect there are other experienced run of the mill non-supervisors /superintendents who are in a similar position. In fact, I know there are. For those of us who do not command the top day rates that some of you may be able to get, times are tough. And, there does not seem to be a whole lot of light at the end of the tunnel (wherever that may be).
If you are working regularly, good on you. If you get as much work as you want, good on you, again. But if you are like me, and I suspect many of your non replying readers may be in a similar situation, then while principles are great, they do not pay the loans, mortgages, or feed families.
I wish it were otherwise. It burns my ass to hear about completely unqualified sons of managers taking jobs so that those who have “paid their dues” lose what might have been a regular rotation, for less than $100 US/day. But it is happening as we speak.
Taking the high road is all very well, and I will continue to refuse dangerous locations with awful dayrates, (Scott, you know what I’m talking about), but it ain’t easy
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I do actually and sincerely feel sorry for quite a few guys in your predicament. If it were up to me (and this is way off the wall - for those of you who do know me - for even my abstract self...), I would put everyone in all companies on a decent salary with a time-in-service-pay-grade table w/safety & production bonuses, shut ALL the doors for a while until these giga-profit oil companies start whimpering, and double-bubble the charge. Solidarity 1 - Individualism 0!!!! Sounds a bit like socialism? Hmmmm... mebbe.... And there's some management that won't hire you for these types of views....

Good luck dude. Try to diversify (know it's hard during these times) to other non-O&G occupations during the interim....
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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and once again... it shows that an individualistic approach will never work. The North Sea divers are looking at a pay rise this year. The Norwegian divers are on even better rates. Why? Because they work together as a collective force.

The same could have happened for ROV in 2008/2009

I see, and feel, the pain of some people on here but have no sympathy for others that simply refused (in 2007/2008), to admit that getting an industry agreement on pay and conditions in place whilst the times were good (by bargaining from a strong position) was the way forward.
When the money was pouring in, the short sighted bods couldn't give a damn for anyone else, however as this thread is now showing, many of those individuals are paying for that short sighted 'I'm all right jack' approach where it hurts.

If you want to work offshore, want good pay and conditions plus wish to work with people that look after their interests as a group go diving...

If you want to be seen off by the companies, when they see fit, stick with ROV's and negotiate alone from your armchair at home.. or maybe in a few months on your mobile, parked up by the side of the road from the seat of a Tesco or Sears HGV truck.

Talk about dragging cattle to water.... what does it take for people to realise that the way forward is collective bargaining?

Unless of course you, as an individual, find it acceptable to have to take a pay cut in an industry that is apparently not suffering from the pain of the land based recession.

best regards
James Mc
James Mc
Site Admin
www.rovworld.com

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James,

Thank you for the above... I'm tired of getting a headache from bangin' me noggin on the table.... You guys / gals should really get off your backsides and do something about this... Hmmmmmm... for the "N. Sea Tigers / Tigresses", YOU, of all people, have the ways and means by joining the Yuni0n dedicated to the ROV sector!!!! For meself? Not much will come out of it for me (yet) because: a.) I rarely work in the N. Sea. b.) live abroad. And c.) HOPING to retire within 500 - 600 more working days.

With the exception of one GM, the companies haven't given me a hard time about my diatribes concerning the Yuni0n.

ANYONE ELSE have the slightest interest in this - go to Uni0n forum here on ROV World!!!!!!!!! PLEASE PM ME!!!!!
I got your economic downturn right here!!!
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The approach by the agencies is now, with more lead time and fewer projects, to get all the availables to send in current cv along with "your day rate". Sift through the pack, bean counters choose cheapest day rate, give the Old Regulars one last chance to "take what the client offers". I'll be waiting for the next wave in a month or two when it's time to save the contract from the follies of the 3-year-inna-binness-New Soop and the quibbling over a hundred or so on the day rate becomes a silly exercise. Yes, having done about 250 days/year for 07 and 08 provides a cushion...ahhh spring, nice time to smell the roses....

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